+- Punaweb Forum (http://punaweb.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Punaweb Forums (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Building in Puna (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? (/showthread.php?tid=12401)
Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - sputnut - 08-20-2013
So, from all I am reading I gather that, even though I can do all my own plumbing and electrical, I can't do my own if I want it permitted? Aren't there any electricians / plumbers who will inspect and sign off for a coupla hundred?
comin' your way soon!
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - kalakoa - 08-20-2013
You're allowed to do your own plumbing/electrical if you're licensed for those trades in Hawaii. Of course, any previous non-Hawaii licensure you may have had in the past does not count here, and you can't get the required 2000 hours' apprenticeship unless you're related to a licensed electrician/plumber.
It would be "illegal" for someone to sign off work they did not perform.
Hooray for the State.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - rainyjim - 08-20-2013
I'm curious if anyone knows: Will the OPs predicament change of the sustainable building bill passes ? Did that bill already fail? Sorry I don't remember its identifying numbers. I think it wad written / introduced by those hawaii sustainable community alliance people - amara? And then handed to russel. Anyways....sorry to be so vague but I think *hope* the sustainable building bill would allow you to do your own work on olumbing, electricity, and well everything else.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - kalakoa - 08-20-2013
Far as I know (based on an old draft) the "sustainable" or "alternative" building codes are mostly about stuctural integrity. I believe one of them attempts to codify the exemptions already granted by NEC 70.
In theory, you can avoid the structural issues by invoking HR 2646 (if your project is on a minimum 2 acres of Ag-zoned land) and you can sidestep the electrical permits by keeping your system within the limits of NEC section 70, but any such project could not be used for "habitation" unless connected to a proper "wastewater disposal"; all plumbing would still have to be inspected/permitted by County.
Safe bet County would then drag their feet because you attempted to evade their authority.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - sputnut - 08-20-2013
sounds sorta monopolistic, huh?
comin' your way soon!
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - EightFingers - 08-20-2013
Unions. Pure and simple.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - peteadams - 08-21-2013
As one who saw a major house renovation budget balloon hugely when the GC discovered zip cord (lamp wire) behind the wall board, along with "studs" constructed of three-deep, short 2x4 scraps nailed together, I really appreciate professional attention to electrical and plumbing construction. I would never want anyone to inherit the mess we found in that 20 year old house in a good neighborhood in the south Bay area. So I support the idea that licensed professionals are required to perform and be accountable for their work in these areas.
But this idea that it's OK to have a licensed professional simply "sign off" for anyone on an electrical or plumbing job is irresponsible. Not that clever and experienced handy persons (such as the sterling folk on this forum) can't do a good job, but it's usually not you we should be worried about. To borrow a term from Rob, it's the Elmer Fudds that we're worried about. What will a "coupla hundred" (as suggested) really buy if it is somehow a generally accepted practice to buy a professional's signature? If evading a legal requirement is just fine, would you totally believe the evading professional will do a great job of supervision? Will they check everything? Anything? Will someone down the line get zip cord in their walls because a couple hundred was good enough for a signature? Not that Elmer Fudds can't make a real mess even using the correct materials.
Or look at it from the view of the electrical or plumbing professional being offered a few hundred dollars for their signature. If they are actually trying to make a living in their profession, you are asking them to work for nearly nothing compared to the complete installation. How is that attractive to a working person? Maybe if they are busy and a little short on ethics, maybe they don't care. Just collect the money and sign off, let someone else worry about hidden problems. Maybe if they are ready to go to work, you have just insulted them big time. You are saying a couple of hundred is only what they are worth? How do you feed a family on a couple of hundred?
And the union bashing that seems to be in fashion gets tiresome. At base a union wants what most any working person wants, a full time job with a reasonable wage under decent working conditions. Company management often seems opposed to those goals. Exorbitant wage demands? Real wages for average incomes, inflation adjusted, have been flat to sinking for at least the last twenty years while the upper end of wealth has been growing dramatically for that period. It's not the unions or average working person who has been making out like bandits financially and wealth inequality is a national topic now.
So the unions push for code rules that require licensed (state-licensed, not union) professionals to perform electrical and plumbing construction, as is true in many jurisdictions. What's wrong with that? That's the union's job: to improve the working conditions for their members. But you don't have to be a union member to benefit from this, just as you don't have to be a union member to benefit from wage increases are negotiated on your behalf by an employee's union. Perhaps maybe even some political pressure came from non-union electricians and plumbers who might feel they should have a voice also? And sorry, anecdotes about bad experiences with incompetent or fraudulent union members or other so-called professionals doesn't really count. Unless you've been very lucky you've had experience with incompetence or fraud in the upper level of professionals, the doctors, lawyers, and, I'm sad to say, even in engineers. Big corporations, small governments and energetic entrepreneurs and everything in between have their ethical and organizational problems. How they are regulated makes all the difference.
What we need to do as individuals is to be very careful in who we employ to do our construction and pay close attention to what they do all along the way. Hopefully with these requirements the county has raised the bar on who gets into the pool of people who do this work so as employers we will start with a better sort than we would have otherwise. If not, you have a clear avenue to complain. Try complaining to Exxon.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - Seeb - 08-21-2013
I don't think anyone is arguing that someone that hires themselves out needs a license. But if you read the hawaii contractor law you need a licensed person to fix a flush valve or or change a faucet washer. And what is the price of a service call. So do you pay a contractor to do the job a week from now, or you do it yourself and have the money to feed the kids
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - Rob Tucker - 08-21-2013
While on other topics the issue of constitutional rights have come up.... this requirement by Hawaii to only use licensed trades smacks of unconstitutional to me. I'd donate to a fund to challenge the law to the Hawaii Supreme Court. Need a willing plaintiff and some money.
I see this law as making an assumption of incompetence by the state. We are assumed to be competent to defend ourselves in a court of law on a murder charge but aren't allowed to glue two pieces of ABS together or wire an outlet. I think the local and state governments have the right to tell us if we are doing the work right or wrong (building inspections) but not to tell us we can't do it ourselves.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - peteadams - 08-21-2013
The issue not whether anyone is incompetent to glue two pieces of ABS together or wire an outlet. The issue is whether a complex residential electrical or plumbing job is implemented competently. If the electrician or plumber has confidence in you and you wire an outlet or glue two pieces of ABS together, great. They still have to sign off on the job and the inspector still has to inspect it. That's a different situation than shelling out a couple of hundred dollars and having someone blindly sign off. What's to stop them? What's to prevent a few buried boxes or taped junctions, maybe some zip cord from being installed in walls, buttoned up and pass a polarity test? Hopefully, a good professional on the job.
Now, could you implement a legal structure where owner-builders could do their own major residential construction work with licensed and regulated oversight? Perhaps specific inspections with pictures and logs of work might be submitted to the county in lieu of a full professional job? I would think probably, if the will was there from interested parties, whoever they are. Since health and safety are key issues in both electrical and plumbing, it's hard to deny a public interest. On that basis I doubt that constitutional challenges would be successful, but that's certainly MHO.