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+--- Thread: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good (/showthread.php?tid=12504)
ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Rob Tucker - 09-07-2013
ABC News has a lengthy article on the costs of alternative energy in Germany. I bring this up because of the local interest in solar, wind and bio energy resources and our heated debate about expanding local geothermal energy production. Perhaps there are things to learn from Germany.
Germany has been aggressive in alternative energy investment and is turning away from nuclear energy. I haven't read the whole article yet.
How Electricity Became a Luxury Good
http://abcnews.go.com/International/electricity-luxury-good/story?id=20158621
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Bullwinkle - 09-07-2013
Altmaier and others are on a mission to help people save money on their electricity bills, because they're about to receive some bad news. The government predicts that the renewable energy surcharge added to every consumer's electricity bill will increase from 5.3 cents today to between 6.2 and 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour -- a 20-percent price hike.
funny the Germans screaming about 7 cents a kwh........ does prove a cost benefit as well as better predictability and less risk of failure over geo thermal however
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Seeb - 09-07-2013
We already pay more per kwh than their worst case #
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Bullwinkle - 09-07-2013
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/03/world/europe/uk-london-building-melts-car/index.html
solar at work - kind of - grin
In reading the entire article - it seems that the "experimental" uses of wind, and big yellow boxes for wave power incorporated in the general power grid "greening" has bitten them in the ....
Solar is working well for europe at latitude 50 - it is expensive to reinvent the wheel with new technology however
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Carey - 09-07-2013
To bring this back local, I always smile at the idea that "new" alternative energy plans (and the costs to produce)....HELCO STARTED as an alternative energy company...It is always interesting to attend a Lyman talk on the start of HELCO... The mission house actually was generating more power than it was using and it was a case of "what'll we do now?"... they actually did not sell the electricity at first, but rented out light bulbs to nearby homes,...and the rental fees were what paid for the electric use, as more appliances became available on the market (this was really early in the electricity age), more items could be rented...
Even more interesting is that this Puueo power generation plant is still working hard today (well, most days...was pumping last Sunday) It is one of the most cost effective generation investments (most likely THE most cost effective) that was made by HELCO...and one of very few alternative energy production plants that HELCO has ACTUALLY invested in (most are IPP's, which has no HELCO investment in...)
The hydroelectric generation on this island is one of the more interesting, as they are run-of-the-river systems, usually only used for smaller, very inconsistent production....but the fairly consistent flow of our east side rivers & the head distance is such that we are blessed.... but these generation systems probably will never be added to on this island, even though there is much more generation potential.... as adding to the hydro system went to the Supreme Court...
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Midnight Rambler - 09-07-2013
Actually if you read the article they are currently paying 28 cents/kwh, and it's expected to rise to 40.
It sounds like a big part of the problem is that the different plants are not integrated into one system. The hydropower reservoirs are shutting down when they should be used as storage for excess wind and solar energy. Because the hydro and wind plants are run by separate companies, you end up with each one being unprofitable and overexpensive even though the cost would even out much better if they were integrated together.
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Seeb - 09-07-2013
And I think the money for grid tie solar system tax breaks and feed in comes right out of the pocket of people that can't afford to front all the money to buy a system
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Bullwinkle - 09-07-2013
I still like the idea of shifting as much of the load to small independent solar systems on site - the more of my outdoor lighting and pond pumping, I moved to low voltage solar systems - the less my electricity bill has become - trimmed 50 dollars a month.
I ran some numbers - using 150 watt 24 vol panels - the pay back being three years......
I leave the heavy lifting (large demands - low wattage interior lighting at night) to Helco
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - peteadams - 09-07-2013
The main takeaway I have from the ABC article is that Germany is heavily dependent on wind and solar for alternative energy as they are heavily subsidized there. The problem they are running into is that those sources are quite variable and the timing of power availability actually collides with other, more conventional, sources of power. For instance, the article cites a pumped storage hydroelectric plant that has become almost unused because it is designed to produce power during the day and pump water to a higher reservoir during the night when electricity supplies are unused and cheaper. Now with so much solar on line during the day competing as power sources there is little reason to release the water to power the hydro generators. Additionally, because of the unreliability of wind and solar, their "brown coal" (soft coal, a very polluting form) power plants have seen an increase in production!
This problem has been discussed by Pahoated and others as the clear benefit of the steady state nature of geothermal generation compared to the variability of wind or solar. The major traditional cost of electricity (other than hydroelectric) has always been the energy cost of heating fluids to produce steam to drive turbines. The energy sources are usually coal, oil or nuclear energy, all expensive to produce and with significant waste consequences (CO2 and radioactivity). Here in Puna we have essentially an endless source of free geothermal heat for the cost of constructing a power station. The article provides very strong support for geothermal in Puna and elsewhere as the primary source of electricity for Hawaii Island. It would even seem that, unless you are completely off grid, solar and wind electrical production would be largely irrelevant.
RE: ABC News: How Electricity Became a Luxury Good - Bullwinkle - 09-07-2013
For instance, the article cites a pumped storage hydroelectric plant that has become almost unused because it is designed to produce power during the day and pump water to a higher reservoir during the night when electricity supplies are unused and cheaper. Now with so much solar on line during the day competing as power sources there is little reason to release the water to power the hydro generators
something is missing - common sense would dictate pumping during the day and using the energy from stored water at night.... doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that option..... we have lots of elevation for free....