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+--- Thread: Ferguson (/showthread.php?tid=14324)
Ferguson - Hunt Stoddard - 08-20-2014
In the wake of the Ferguson protests, I seem to recall from a year or so ago that Hawaii county police got themselves an bomb-proof, armored vehicle. I think I saw it once or twice. Is that ridiculous, overkill thing still driving around?
RE: Ferguson - oink - 08-21-2014
The problem is not the vehicles given to local agencies it's how they use them. It's very conceivable that a local agency might have an incident in which an armored vehicle would be very appropriate. Such incidents are thankfully rare. It's also true that the MRAP is a bit of overkill in most likely situations where an armored vehicle would be appropriate, but the MRAP will ably fulfill those roles except for PR purposes. There are more appropriate purpose built vehicles for civilian police use that provide armored capabilities for those rare incidents that call for their use, but they are extremely expensive and well out of the affordability range for most agencies. The MRAPs are essentially free.
The real problem is not the vehicles but how they are used. They should only be utilized where necessary, e.g. armed barricaded suspects. Whoever ordered the St.Louis County PD to show up at the Ferguson incident in the MRAP with a belt fed machine gun mounted and manned needs to have his/her head examined.
The same can be said of SWAT. A great tool but very often over used. A complicating issue there is that using SWAT for a lot of stuff where it isn't really necessary is pretty much free training. They get to employ their tactics while performing a duty that would otherwise require other officers that are then free to continue routine duties. Unfortunately, while understandable and making monetary sense, it's bad PR and otherwise wrong and bad for the Country in general, IMHO.
Point being, these are valuable tools that should not be taken away from our police agencies. However, it is valid to criticize how frequently they are implemented and for what purposes. When these tools are overused or misused by civilian police agencies, including Hawaii's local PDs, they should be held accountable. Yes it is valid for the mayor, the Police Commission and the public to demand accountability. They should aalso demand to see what the written policy is for the use of these tools. However, please don't take away the tools. Those tools can save lives when available when needed. Has the PD misused the vehicle they have? If you haven't seen or heard from it they probably aren't.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
RE: Ferguson - snorkle - 08-21-2014
Well,.....It's a shame to have a tank, and not use it........just sayin.....
RE: Ferguson - loffelkopffl - 08-21-2014
cops will be cops, I remember 40 years ago where they would litterly bust down your doors and tear up an entire house while holding people at gunpoint and knocking them down looking for some marijuana
RE: Ferguson - 4antares - 08-21-2014
HCPD accountable? Or even more than marginally trained?
life is short. enjoy it
RE: Ferguson - Guest - 08-21-2014
It is amazing they have tanks, but say putting lapel cameras on officers is too expensive.
Police today are the new terrorists. Be warned. Hawaii not so much, but mainland it is very real.
RE: Ferguson - kalakoa - 08-21-2014
they have tanks, but say putting lapel cameras on officers is too expensive.
They're not talking about "install cost"...
RE: Ferguson - lavalava - 08-21-2014
SWAT teams have had mini tanks since the '80s. Why is this news?
RE: Ferguson - oink - 08-21-2014
They don't have tanks. At least I've never seen and agency with a tank. They have armored cars of varying types with the MRAP being currently fairly common. The MRAPs are made to withstand IEDs which makes them taller to make room for the sloped armor underneath which of course is unnecessary for police use. The MRAP is much more than necessary but they're free. It would be nice if the military had surplus vehicles that perfectly matched the needs of civilian police but that's not likely. I certainly see no reason for a heavy or even medium machinegun.
If HCPD isn't being held accountable and isn't being properly trained, there is no one to blame other than the elected officials you the citizens elected. Perhaps residents should be looking for leaders that will worry about that kind of stuff rather than things they don't really have any control over. Generally, IMHO, in a democracy the residents get the government they deserve. Democracy isn't perfect but I don't know what system would be better.
Edit to add response to Lava's post: I've heard of purpose built small armored tracked vehicles designed for entry against armed barricaded suspects but I've never seen one. Very expensive I'm sure. Maybe I've just never had close association with an agency with that kind of money.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
RE: Ferguson - Guest - 08-21-2014
Install cost, cost of cloud space, regardless. We cant afford TO NOT have police officers act responsible and be accountable.
Police officers work for the state, you pay them and I pay them. We do not bow to them, or need to "do as you are told or be shot"
The police are here and are paid, by me and you, to uphold the law and to serve and protect the laws. They are not here to take the laws and crimes into their own hands or determine what the punishment should be, that is the courts job.
The vigilante cops killing unarmed people, walking in peoples yards and shooting their dogs, botched home raids and killing the wrong people, enough is enough.
They need to be held to the same accountability as citizens are, the laws are there to keep things sound, for everyone, whether you have a badge or not. You cant put on your magic cop suit and all of a sudden you are above the laws you are supposed to protect.