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+--- Thread: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT (/showthread.php?tid=2005)
Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Rob Tucker - 03-25-2008
As I write this a friend is having his car modified to add a new system which will add hydrogen to his gas mixture.
The cost is about $300. The installers are local folks who have made a number of local engine conversions this past month and are reporting various improvements in the operation of their gasoline engine including an increase in gas milage from 16 mpg to 26 mpg.
Another claim is reduced tailpipe emissions.
Another claim is a cleaner engine.
Another claim is improved power.
I found several web sites on the topic with a simple search of water / gas hybrid system.
Someone pick this apart. It sounds like one of those "if it sounds too good to be true..." but the testimonials are local. I should know in a couple days from my friend how this is working out.
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Guest - 03-25-2008
quote:Sounds a bit like the old Pogue Principle
Originally posted by Rob Tucker
...Someone pick this apart. It sounds like one of those "if it sounds too good to be true..." but the testimonials are local. I should know in a couple days from my friend how this is working out.
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - JWFITZ - 03-25-2008
The most obvious problem is that that hydrogen isn't going to give you any kind of hp boost, as it's quite a bit lower yield at atmospheric pressures. Unless you're injecting it pressurized or are turbocharging your engine, your HP will at best be about 75 percent of gas.
The second problem is that if you're running hydrogen in the mix with gasoline, your internal engine temps are going to be high enough that the hydrogen will ruin your rings and valves in short order, as it makes steel very brittle. It's one of the biggest problems with my holtzman gas project, as the gas is about 1/3 hydrogen by volume, and why it's important to make sure you keep things as cool as possible.
I'd call BS on that project.
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Rob Tucker - 03-25-2008
They are claiming that with a controlled mixture of gasoline and hydrogen the operating temperatures are lower.
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Bob Orts - 03-25-2008
So long as the conversion adheres to MSEM 1A, and the company doing the conversion or the package complies with CFR Parts 85 - 88, it's alright. If not, it's an illegal conversion and a violation of EPA regulations. These standards were developed not to prevent cleaner or alternative fuels and engines, but to prevent companies from violating emissions standards by just claiming it pollutes less. So if they can't get certification, maybe the fuel isn't as clean or as good as they claim.
Unfortunately, most people don’t realize the violation until they have an inspection, or go to a legitimate service center that has to report conversions (without an EPA certificate affixed to the conversion) and find their vehicle impounded. In most cases, there is no monetary relief to the vehicle owner; they are out the cost of the conversion, fines, penalties, court cost, lost of use of their vehicle, and the cost to convert it back to approved EPA standards.
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Guest - 03-25-2008
Hydrogen enriched natural gas as a motor fuel with variable air fuel ratio and fuel mixture ratio control
a 1998 claim
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Guest - 03-25-2008
"Run your car with Water"
I'm a bit skeptical about this
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - JWFITZ - 03-25-2008
Hi Rob,
I don't doubt that engine temperatures are lower, as the entire energy output is lower, but still too high to be safe for an unmodified engine.
For example, and comparison, the Holtzman gas is composed of about 1/3 each Hydrogen, Methane, and Carbon Monoxide, none of which are particularly high BTU yielding fuels, and it's surprising really, when you feel the heat generated by the gas jet, just how cool it burns. My biggest concern with the Holtzman gas/wood gas project is that generators will burn up about twice as fast as they would otherwise. Still, the generator itself is cheap compared to the cost of the fuel running through it at this point.
Got it running right now, actually. It's choking a bit because I'm running out of good dry wood. It will burn most anything, but certainly the drier the wood the better, and if the moisture content is much about about 18 percent you could run a barbecue on the gas but a engine will only barely run. For this climate some sort of dryer has got to be part of the system, and is the next project, and I imagine I'll just pipe the engine exhaust through a box to heat up the wood chips and dry them out.
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Rob Tucker - 03-25-2008
I'll let you know what I hear back. My friend got installed today and is doing a Kona run tomorrow.
RE: Water (hydrogen) as a gasoline substitute? NOT - Rob Tucker - 03-26-2008
Okay, Here's the report on the test run. The vehicle is a light crew cab pickup. The trip was from Kalapana to Kona. AC on all the way.
1. MPG: He says he's never gotten more than 23 mpg before and on this trip he got 27.4 mpg. Carefully checked.
2. The engine showed improved power. Not massively but just some stronger on the hills.
3. The engine ran so quietly he couldn't hear it at times.
4. Nose to the tailpipe he cannot smell petroleum fumes at all.
5. Engine ran smoother, no pings or valve chatter.
He is happy and says he would make this modification even without improved gas milage.
I asked him about engine temperature. He didn't notice any rise but wasn't looking. He'll pay more attention to it tomorrow.