+- Punaweb Forum (http://punaweb.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Punaweb Forums (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Punatalk (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? (/showthread.php?tid=20408)
Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - MarkD - 11-23-2018
T-H Headline Nov 23: "TMT opponents want high court to reconsider ruling"
Excerpts:
"Opponents of the Thirty Meter Telescope are getting some help from other Native Hawaiian leaders and a former state Supreme Court justice in their request for reconsideration of a recent ruling in favor of the $1.4 billion project.
Appellants of the Conservation District Use Permit that allows the next-generation observatory to be built on Maunakea filed the request Tuesday, which asks the high court to reconsider the ruling and adopt a dissenting opinion from Associate Justice Michael Wilson.
He wrote impacts to the summit are already “substantially adverse” and that the state Board of Land and Natural Resources, which approved the permit, was applying a “degradation principle” to Maunakea that “extinguishes the legal protection afforded to natural resources in the conservation district.”
https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/2018/11/23/hawaii-news/tmt-opponents-want-high-court-to-reconsider-ruling/
- - - -
The media have portrayed native Hawaiians as the major force trying to block TMT, but I bet it is environmentalists. Strategy meetings between the two groups of TMT opponents likely agreed that it is best for native Hawaiians to take the lead--to primarily use the argument that telescope building on the mountain is cultural infringement.
Environmentalists, of course, like to put forth the narrative that indigenous people always are environmentalists.
Not always. In several indigenous cultures in the Amazon, some tribes use few modern technologies other than machetes, pots and chain saws. Otherwise, these tribes pretty much live off the land, in a traditional way. They're environmentalists.
Native Hawaiians, much less so. If you look around Hawaii to see who is truly living off the land, it is a small contingent. Mostly white so-called Puna hippies who eschew materialism and live in tiny cabins. Walking the walk. Native Hawaiians, it seems, are much more apt to like 4-wheel drives and live in regular houses with stereos and big screen TVs (excluding homeless native Hawaiians. But they have not taken to nature for survival).
Houses or apartments like most of us elect to live in.
I suspect most of the hardcore environmentalists in Hawaii are college educated whites. Members of the Sierra Club. More apt to live in a town or city in Hawaii than on a rural farm. So they are closer to the courts, where they can file lawsuits.
Sorry to bring up the race/culture thing here, but is it not native Hawaiian opposition--a race/culture thing--that is challenging an important project to Hawaii? With help from a predominantly non-native Hawaiian group (environmentalists) that prefers to fight from the background on the TMT case?
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - kalakoa - 11-23-2018
help from a predominantly non-native Hawaiian group
Allies of convenience. Later the environmentalists will turn against everyone with 4x4s and big TVs, regardless of race.
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - glinda - 11-23-2018
I bet it is environmentalists..
Damn, those pesky environmentalists.
Though I am curious if you have any other evidence of such a relationship? And of courses, one would be remiss not to ask where do you get all your other assumptions? Hippies, whites, and all that talk about how Hawaiians behave, are they all your own assumptions? How is it that you think you know about how folks live on other parts of the islands? You put a lot of assumptions out there, are they all a product of your own imagination, or do you have some sources that you are relying on? If so, do you have any links?
As to your central theme, that environmentalists care about the environment. I agree with you completely, and am grateful that they do. As I am sure you are too. Right?
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - TomK - 11-23-2018
The idea that environmentalists are behind the TMT protests is so ridiculous that it really doesn't deserve any more comment. When some actual evidence is presented maybe I'll take a look, but this is just pure and uninformed speculation.
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - Chunkster - 11-23-2018
IIRC, the Sierra Club issued some policy statements against the TMT. I am not aware of any other environmental organizations coming out against it, and I think it is an exaggeration to say that all or most environmentalists are opposed.
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - randomq - 11-24-2018
Remember, the TMT was going to kill waiku bugs and pollute aquifers. Those bogus environmental claims were reviewed and found to be untrue.
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - Durian Fiend - 11-24-2018
quote:
Originally posted by MarkD
Strategy meetings between the two groups of TMT opponents likely agreed that it is best for native Hawaiians to take the lead--to primarily use the argument that telescope building on the mountain is cultural infringement.
Hmm. The white environmentalists gave permission for natives to take the initiative on contesting TMT- a likely scenario that is NOT.
Apparently you're of the opinion that most environmentalists and Hawaiians are hypocrites for not living off the land. I don't agree with this dichotomy. It's not necessary to adopt such a lifestyle in order to take a legitimate interest in their concerns.
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - MarkD - 11-24-2018
I have been remiss in not using the term environmental extremists. Virtually all of us are environmentalists to some extent; we don't want chemicals dumped into rivers and the ocean; don't want the air quality that China and India have. Or other undesirably impacts from reckless use of the environment.
But we will go with environmentalists; I think we all understand the meaning here.
Tom: "The idea that environmentalists are behind the TMT protests is so ridiculous that it really doesn't deserve any more comment. "
No, environmentalists are not "behind" the protests, but they seem to be equal participants.
Durian Fiend: "The white environmentalists gave permission for natives to take the initiative on contesting TMT- a likely scenario that is NOT."
Not suggesting that; native Hawaiians certainly do what they want. But we have quite the collaboration here. I wonder which of the two groups is mostly behind the funding of the court challenge. (I'll try to address the hypocrisy topic later.)
Interesting how often environmentalism is linked to other issues: sometimes the other groups use it as a pretext, sometimes environmentalists latch on to issues someone else has raised as an afterthought.
Examples: NIMBYs opposing projects near their homes. Officials closing natural areas for safety. Native peoples opposing projects on reservations. State permitting regs relating to revenue generation. Consultants who don't want shortcuts taken so they can do their expensive environmental reviews.
Example of the latter: Consultants need to study demo of Uncle Billys. Construction firms can handle hazmat; they could begin within a month or two, pending contract agreement. Now we have a 2 year delay and $1 million in costs for an environmental review.
https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/2018/10/15/hawaii-news/only-one-firm-shows-interest-in-former-uncle-billys-site-study-needed-before-state-can-proceed-with-redevelopment/
Cause: The National Environmental Policy Act, enacted in 1970. A Negative Declaration, which could have streamlined the process, is being disallowed here. That $1 million of taxpayer money could be used for far better things.
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - glinda - 11-24-2018
MarkD - "No, environmentalists are not "behind" the protests, but they seem to be equal participants."
What's your point? What "environmentalists," doing what? I'd love some concrete ideas to work with here. You know, like the name of an environmental group that did something specific. Do you have one, or are all your environmentalists still in the closet?
From what I can tell Mark, you have a strong aversion to environmentalists, and a need to find them under every rock. They are environmentalists after all, right? Well what's the bitch? You talk about environmental extremists, ok. Who? Where? When?
Hawaii has given rise to a few notable environmentalists. Though I don't know of any that are actual extremists. Dexter Cate might have been considered an extremists, but I wouldn't go that far. He was a compassionate warrior for the environment. But putting all that aside, who and where and what extremist can you point to with regards Mauna Kea?
RE: Environmentalists Big Force in TMT Kill Effort? - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 11-24-2018
environmentalists, and a need to find them under every rock.
It would be the best place to gather and hide.
“Don’t move that rock without an EIS!”
"I want great climate, we’re going to have that.” President Donald J. Trump, while viewing the massive wildfire devastation 11/17/18. (The J stands for Jenius)