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+--- Thread: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." (/showthread.php?tid=3515)
Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - StillHope - 08-23-2008
...get used to termites like to the active volcano..?
(Sorry for plagiarism,I just love that thread...).
Seriously,if you built your house with wood,
1)what did you do to prevent termites
and
2)how long is the non- termite)damaged house will last?
(I understand,it depends on the location,quality of wood and other factors,but generally?
Note: If I didn't have limited options,I would use non-wood materials,but at the moment I have to deal with the option I have -a house ,where the treated wood is the material.
I would appreciate if you share your own experience.
I did read threads about termites,but it's a little bit different angle.
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - Rob Tucker - 08-23-2008
How long? Wood frame buildings, according to US Government statistics, have an average life span, nationwide, of 47 years. I have seen federal data compiled for the Big Island which pegs the lifespan of a wood frame building here at 33 years.
Termites are not the only factor which affects lifespan although they may play a large role in Hawaii, South & Mainland Gulf Coast. The biggest single threat to your home (and you) is fire. Wood frame buildings are essentially build of firewood.
While we focus on newsworthy dramatic events like hurricanes and earthquakes it is actually more mundane threats like termites and fire which affect us all the most. In Hawaii termite damage alone is estimated at $150,000,000 a year.
Prevent termites? Can't be done. Termites aren't going away, they are here to stay. What is going away are the world's forests - rapidly. All you can do is not build with wood or engage in a lifelong maintenance battle which you will eventually lose. It may be that in upper elevations like Volcano the climate does prevent termites.....
My own home is state of the art building technology, cost about $100 psf to build is highly fire resistant (4 hour rated) and structurally termite proof. I have termites in some of my furniture.
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - Carey - 08-23-2008
There are homes in Hillo from the 1800's that are still standing & ones from the 1970's that are falling apart.... so much has to do with materials & care...
Our main house: built in the early 70's with the house framing in metal ... so termite treating was not done... the only wood was trim, incidental framing inc. lanai & carport.
redwood & cedar crownmold & side trim are still good; pine baseboard - gone. Redwood 2x4 & 4x4 posts had termite bites into the bottom & top 1/8 inch; fir 2x4, 4x4 & 4x16 had/have termite damage throughout, untreated plywood cored out & full of termite droppings.
ohana added in 2000 - treated wood & plywood have no termite droppings... pine trim and untreated plywood have termite droppings beneath...
When we bought house, it was inspected, found to have termites & owner had the whole house tented & we now pay to have annual inspection /treatment with the company that did tenting...
I would definately recommend this route, as ANY wood, inc. trim, cabinets & furniture are edible to the termites (this inc. things like pianos!).
The annual insp fee includes spot treatment as needed & tenting, if needed, every 5 years... seems to be a good investment for the longevity of the bits & pieces of wood in our house.
Adding this:
The main ground treatments are for subterranean termites, but there are also drywood termites that fly to the wood in your house.... no ground treatment will keep them out or affect them...
Found these Termite Tips
· Repair any roof or plumbing leaks as soon as possible. These leaks can allow termites to survive above ground in a house.
· Eliminate any wood-to-soil contact around your foundation and remove wood debris near your home.
· Prevent mulch and soil from touching the siding of your home. They make it much easier for termites to enter.
· Store firewood away from your home.
· Use mesh screens on all windows and doors, as well as in ventilation openings for attics and crawl spaces.
· Seal nail holes and cracks in exposed wood to help prevent easy access by drywood termites.
Our house was tented with Vikane (Sulfuryl Fluoride), the PAN Pesticide Database:
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34505
No one accupied the house at the time. This pesticide does not leave a residue, but can leave pillows & cushions 'funky' for a bit (possibly gas trapped???) It also kills EVERYTHING exposed to it, including plants.... leaves & other breathing parts of the plant exposed will die...
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - StillHope - 08-23-2008
Rob, thank you again.
I meant how long before termites make enough damage for the poison to be used?
And it would be really helpful to know more about the non-wood stuff you re distributing.Being modest is not always the best case..
Carey,your information is very helpful,as usual,thank you.
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - StillHope - 08-23-2008
Carey,what kind of chemical did they use in your house treatment?
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - John S. Rabi - 08-23-2008
Rob is right, the termites are not going anywhere, they are here to stay. I remember we sold a concrete condo in the mid '90s and there were termites in the kitchen cabinet! (The condo complex was only 15 years old.)
Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,ARB,BFT,CM,CBR,FHS,PB,RB
808.989.1314
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - StillHope - 08-23-2008
Those flying bastards!
I don't like the screens on windows,but I guess,I'll have to suffer..
-------------------------------------------------------------
John,about the concrete condo.
I am just curious,how much more expensive to build a concrete structure?
Again -general figures...
If you compare 2 exactly the same plans?
What is it - 25 % more? 40? I have no idea.
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - John S. Rabi - 08-23-2008
The last concrete condo complex I built cost $40,000,000 as I recall. I have not built a wooden complex in a while, so I don't have up to date numbers for those. [
] Seriously, I really don't have a clue, but I guess it depends on where you build. Our high-end concrete condo in Taiwan cost about 25% of what it would have cost here and I am sure the developer still made money. Our condo on Penang was even less, about 20% of what it would have cost here. Interestingly, hardly anyone build concrete condos here and hardly anyone build wooden condos elsewhere.Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,ARB,BFT,CM,CBR,FHS,PB,RB
808.989.1314
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - JWFITZ - 08-23-2008
The main problem with wooden structures on the island is that the bulk of the new ones were built by mainland contractors with mainland techniques. It doesn't work. Traditional post and pier construction can be very effective, and long lived, if maintained and not ignored. The key is paying attention to what is going on under the house and if there is evidence of damage, take care of it immediately. Unfortunately, most people throw lots of crap in under there, pay little attention to what is going on, don't maintain the vegetation around the house, and basically forget that you live in the tropics. As well attention to detail in building is key. As a boatbuilder, it's not uncommon to see 100 or year old boats that are basically sound, as long as they were properly constructed from the start. Termites are not near the problem that constant water, rot, and marine borers are.
Speaking of tropics, many forget that disaster is a fact of life in earthquake, lava, and hurricane zones. This is part of the reason historically there has been a tendency towards modest homes in much of the world--as there's just a fair chance that regardless of how you build, you're going to get wiped out. No kind of structure is going to withstand a lava flow, and for much of Puna is a risk statistically as large as any other.
While there are lots of good reasons to advocate concrete, I personally advocate wood building for ecological reasons. It is possible to build a modest wooden house with a neutral carbon footprint. Concrete would be more difficult to do so with, and the concrete industry in general is responsible for 5 to 10 percent of all global CO2 emissions, depending on who you talk to. This personally is a major concern for me, I understand others do not share it so. China is the largest producer of concrete, and the conditions in the plants are anything but healthy or humane. Rightly so, the timber industry is anything but benign, but by and large the only wood in a house at this point that comes from first growth virgin forest is interior trim stock, and a house made of any material is likely to have that, unless it is deliberately done without.
Teminix h20 by Jasco is a reasonably effective treatment, and copper compounds are more benign than much.
RE: Building with wood? "You might wanna..." - Rob Tucker - 08-23-2008
One of the main problems with the nonstop maintenance and attention wood structures require is that people get old. They reach a point in their lives where they too often lack the energy and the money to keep the place up and the house starts to run down. Add a leaky roof and before long all you own is a mess. So they build or buy their home, pay their mortgage, pay their taxes and just about as the house is paid off.... it is ready to tear down.
Here in the islands I think that the commitment to American wood frame is one of the reasons there is a lot of local poverty. Families are not able to pass fully appreciated properties on to the next generation. They pass on fully depreciated properties. Termite riddled and rotted houses. It's a shame. The banks win. Honsador and HPM win. When I showed our new materials to Honsador on Oahu years ago I was literally told "If we sold that stuff no one would come back and buy more".
Jay is rather right on about mainland contractors. The workmanship isn't there anymore. It may be that the contractors are lazy or it may be that the public is to cheap to pay for good work. Why should they? The average family moves every 4.3 years or some such period of time. There's always another sucker. Home building is no longer home building. It is investment philosophy. Buy low, sell high. Build cheap, run away.
But the real simple reason wooden structures are such a poor investment is that they are organic. From the moment the tree is cut down it is on a path to become dirt again. All that maintenance over the decades is intended to merely slow down the inevitable.
Here in the U.S. if a home makes it to 100 years old someone wants to put a brass plaque on it. In Europe a 100 year old home is considered "new". One of my arguments for concrete building are that they can last hundreds and sometimes thousands of years with minimal maintenance. There are numerous Roman works still in use.
If you build a wood structure using x acres of lumber and that house, in Hawaii, lasts an average of 33 years and compare that to a home lasting 200 years and 80% recycled content then the factor of performance of material is 6x+. What is missing from most people's awareness here is that the costs of building with higher grade materials has come way down to compete with wood. People still build with wood mostly because they don't want to think about it.
Anyone really want to own a wooden boat? They're trying to give a big one away in Honolulu harbor right now. The maintenance and repair costs are too high.
Jay, you are pretty good with facts... what percentage of boat owners actually own wooden boats?