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+--- Thread: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale (/showthread.php?tid=4440)
Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - Guest - 08-28-2008
TROY D. STENZEL DBA Eastside Land Clearing and Yard Service
GETaxpayer ID: W30216306-01
Former Taxpayer ID: 30123137
I had the most horrible experience ever with mistakenly hiring the most unprofessional guy to clear out and make a switchback walking path to access my stream frontage. He quit without finishing the bid, demanded money that wasn't due by the terms, and yelled, called names, and bullied until it was either fork over something or call the cops. I shouldn't have given him anything, and when I did, he called me a thief repeatedly.
Other choice stuff coming out of his mouth:
F*ck off and die,
F*ck you Grandma
People like you is why locals hate haoles. (He's a haole)
In response to my telling him this was causing a huge amount of stress -- "Good, I hope you drop dead!)
Insults about our weight and fitness level (the path was specifically to be easy)
and ... the #1 reasons YOU on Punaweb should be warned:
Said that people in Puna are all ripoffs and burn him, and the reason he wouldn't finish the job is I had never planned to pay him anyway. (Funny thing that he threw the Puna card at me, because I live north of Hilo, but the guy is irrational and it was a rotten judgment to make if I had been in Puna.)
Also that anyone who hasn't been here for decades doesn't know the first thing about how to do anything in Hawai'i. (He is from Louisiana via MAUI to Puna)
So make no mistake this guy has some deep issues about haoles and newcomers and Puna residents ...
He also tried to scam me by saying he'd bought some rope specifically for the job, but when I asked for the receipt he flipped out at me for refusing to reimburse him. It was used rope as it turned out, so I guess the receipt would have made a liar of him. He took his rope back that I had paid him to string, and threw a bucket of rebar down the hillside in a hissy fit.
I could probably file a complaint against him for putting me under duress and extorting money from me. But I will probably just move on and chalk it down to lesson learned.
I ended up giving him another $100 for the work, telling him I was not paying him the other $100 (not that I owed it anyway) because his insults and yelling etc.. were rapidly reducing any value his work had. I gave him $40 for the rope as he'd asked, and then found out he took it away.
He left calling me Thief, thief, thief. It was very disturbing and I don't wish a similar experience on anyone!
A few details about the job:
Troy made me a bid, which is how he likes to work, not by hourly.
I accepted, paid him $300 down on the $1000 bid, the rest to be paid ON COMPLETION. No terms involving him doing what he did and refusing to complete the job.
He originally quoted rope as the only material he would need, but after his first day required I buy $500 in materials, which I did, which he cut up so they can't be returned.
There already was a steep trail, made by the prior owners, and I was real clear that what I wanted was safe access that wasn't an adventure hike ... not a zipline into a tree, a gently sloping walking path with a few stairs. That's what he promised, and he said it would be four foot wide.
What I got was one foot in places and the sides sloughing off.
He didn't listen to what I asked for with the entry, which was to start with a switchback, because he thought it was ugly to walk by old fence with yard slash. Instead he put in sketchy steps where the "steps" actually had a slope.
My property is soft fine dirt, not rocks, so even I can stick a shovel in it and make the back of a step, but making it retain a step shape is not so easy and what he tried to do was just stupid and a waste of effort, and could get a person killed.
I had a level way in from the road below my house, from the bridge,that was my original plan, to have him clear it, but he talked me into the more private route down through the trees.
When he left after the second day (half days), he told me to check out the trail and he'd be back in the morning to finish the rest in a few more hours, at which point I needed to have cash for him.
What I found was a steep drop over roots and mud with so-called "steps" of soft dirt, with half-assed risers held by rebar in soft dirt that fell apart the first time we tested them. Some "steps" were actually slopes between the risers, so a person would skid in the mud and then no doubt the next riser would fail under light pressure. The rebar was sticking up above the risers so a person could get torn up. The "handrail" of rope was in places a full arm's length from the step and I asked him to bring it in. He refused.
We also asked why he didn't do the switchbacks and instead had at least 50 of these dangerous "steps" of soft mud. The trail was 1 foot wide in places (proposed four feet). He hadn't even gotten past the halfway mark, and some of what he had gone over was the original sketch trail, not improved upon.
Yes, he had cut down a lot of junk trees (mostly small), and that's why he thought he should be paid more, but I didn't hire him to clear trees. I hired him to get a path, and without a usable path that went all the way down, the project was of no value at all.
Upshot was, he had a tantrum as soon as his design was questioned. I had let him do his thing. I don't breathe down people's necks. I checked on the trail when he told me to, after the second half day work, after he left, and knew we had to talk before he put more time into this hack job and called it done.
We didn't ream him a new one. We knew he had a short fuse already. But he couldn't handle any revision. He wanted to do some more makeshift steps and get his additional $700 and be out of there in less time than the 3 days of work he had bid.
So the alternative he picked was to quit on the grounds that we were some newbies to Hawai'i (six years, landscaped several properties), and the kind of people who cannot be pleased. We tried to reason with him and even told him to go ahead and finish the bottom half and we would make our own modifications for safety of the existing work.
No, because now he doesn't like us and won't work around us, so just pay me $200 more NOW and I'll leave. And he wouldn't let up, and when I said I wasn't down with his unprofessional tantrum and being left in the lurch after putting $1000 of my money into it, then he got really nasty and abusive.
When he told me he KNEW I never intended to pay him, I lost it. I had gone to the bank twice for him and gotten all the cash to pay him, and rearranged my whole schedule to do it, and paid him his down payment. Everything done in good faith on my part. It was just the last straw to have this jerk start chanting "you're a thief" like a mantra. Arghhh!
I'm still stressed out.
Moral -- never never never relax just because a person is recommended through Punaweb. He may have been fine before but now on personality-altering drugs or god knows what. Or he wasn't crossed at all on the other job. The guy CAN whack down trees and brush. He just couldn't do the part requiring some detail, engineering, and finesse, because he works like a guy on 'roids. Zero patience.
Bottom line, I'm sorry he bid something he couldn't do in the time he thought he could, but in my world a BID is the final price. There can be add-ons by customer request, but you can't double your bid for the original scope of work after it's accepted and you start work. And if you choose to walk off the job you can't change it to a time and materials job, which is what he wanted to do.
You especially can't go time and materials when you don't even have an hourly rate, you are just pulling a "value" for your work out of your hat (or a lower part of your anatomy).
It was really stupid of me to do a verbal agreement without a written description of the work. Never again. I did ask him to sign a receipt for the down payment, which he did, on which I wrote the monetary terms and that the $700 was "on completion." And he signed that. So I don't think I owed him the $140 I gave him to get him to go away. That was basically extortion on his part.
Not sure if what he did can be fixed, but within 30 minutes we had changed his goat trail down a slope into a gradual switchback that is safe without rope ... but there's a lot more distance and my son, who CAN do it, has already twice what he has time to do on his plate.
So don't make the same kind of mistake!
PS. As an example of the nerve of this guy, after he quit and started complaining about all the time he put in, I reminded him the original proposal was that he expected it was a three day job. He had worked two half days (or less) and this was his third trip, which had been no work ...
I said look, you promised 3 days, which is 24 hours, so you are making good money, that was over $40 an hour for the 3 day job -- and at the point he quit he wanted $500 for about 8 hours of real time.
He said, "I said three days, nothing about how long a day is."
I said most reasonable people estimate a day at 8 hours. He said, no way, a day is showing up. So by his logic, you can show up, work 15 minutes, leave on 3 days and call that a 3 day job. [
!]Whatever happened to having some respect for a person who has hired you and not calling them personal insults? And since when is the customer supposed to accept WHATEVER shoddy work you do even if it doesn't resemble what you promised them? I mean, it's one thing for a client to be picky and make you do stuff over and over and not wanting to pay extra, but I was always clear what I wanted. He chose not to listen.
Oh, and he also accused me of wanting to foist an "ugly path" off on a buyer because I'm just one of those people who wants to sell, rip off the buyer, and get out.
I TOLD him I am selling the property. I told him that I wanted to add value by making a real and important improvement -- safe easy access to the beautiful stream. I told him that SAFE was more important than aesthetics. Any buyer can SEE the aesthetics. Deception is foisting off an unsafe path. I won't do that. As for the aesthetics, it's rain forest, and plants grow quickly. I told him I would landscape the unattractive parts.
Does that make me an unethical speculator? I don't think so. For all I know the property will sell for the same price regardless, but it was something that needed to be done and I felt that I wanted to do it and give something more usable to the next owner.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - lquade - 08-28-2008
sorry kathy for your horrible experience, but i thank you for letting us on punaweb know... to me this is the real value of punaweb, learning who and what is good and bad... i wont forget that nasty persons name you can bet..
by the way, jay fitzgerald on punaweb can do almost anything! has a wonderful disposition and very artistic in everything... i cant say enough good things about his work.. so even if you are not sure if it is something he will bite off, give him an email.. he hasnt said no to any project yet i have dreamed up! linnette
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - John S. Rabi - 08-28-2008
You should have asked questions on Punaweb before hiring him! He ripped me off too, back in 2006. He gave me a bid and after finishing the job demanded $300 more. I paid him but told him I will make his life miserable. My newly planted Areca palms were dug out in response the following week. (No, I can't prove it was him, but I sure followed up with my actions after that.)
Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,ARB,BFT,CM,CBR,FHS,PB,RB
808.989.1314
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - pslamont - 08-28-2008
Finding these things out is a big part of what Punaweb is about. From the beginning, we have helped one another find good workers and warned one another about problem ones.... from project helpers to contractors. Personally, I hope getting a good or bad reputation on Punaweb seriously affects businesses and workers.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - missydog1 - 08-28-2008
thanks linnette! I appreciate the referral-- too bad Troy took all my money I had budgeted!
John -- oh jeez, you are right, I never thought to POST a query because I received the referral in the "need someone to cut trees" topic in the Building Forum, from a satisfied Punaweb customer who had used Troy. His name didn't come up in the actual topic though, so you wouldn't have know it was Troy being discussed.
Well, it may sound dumb but I feel better knowing that I wasn't his first victim. It's pretty awful after being called all those names, trying to weigh whether somehow I was unfair to him. I care very much about treating people well, and I think I'm the opposite of being too picky, rather too easygoing and trusting, which got me in the mess.
So he retaliated? Hmm. We also felt concerned; that's why I gave him money he didn't deserve, I think. I have a back neighbor who is home most of the time, who can see any vehicle coming to my property, who watches out for me. As soon as Troy left, we went up and told him that if he sees Troy or either of his vehicles, to call the police immediately.
And if he comes back here or anything is damaged or disappeared, we will call the police for sure.
ed after seeing Pam's post, yes, I totally agree.
And I repeat that this guy has an inner contempt for most of you automatically, just for not being from here for twenty years, or for being haole. So with that kind of judgment in his head, he's already ready to call you names if you question him in any way.
He also started talking about how the value of the improvement was going to be some pie in the sky number that I'm getting dirt cheap. First, in this market that's not the case. Second, I hate it when people start telling you you're taking advantage of them after they make a bid.
If you can't do the work for the price you bid, with a smile and a professional attitude, then sorry, you shouldn't make the bid. Bid twice as much to begin with -- oops, you don't get the job because in fact it isn't worth your inflated price.
People with a distorted sense of the value of their work who do property improvements for owners are going to face tough times now that the equity bubble has burst.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - StillHope - 08-28-2008
Kathy,I am sorry it happened to you.You seem like very nice person and don't deserve that.
I think, may be a thread like "PW BBB" would be nice to report the contractors from hell.
Just wondering what happened to Canhle's friend,who paid the money to build a house and was left with a foundation only...
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - missydog1 - 08-28-2008
Sounds like a good idea, StillHope, to have a continuing topic everyone could check. There's a lot of info on Punaweb but it can get buried. On the same topic, post if you are going to use someone, in advance, and see if people come out of the woodwork to warn you. And I very much appreciate your empathy.
I will say that I'm a nice person until someone tries to pull something on me and I have given all the benefit of the doubt. Or when I'm messed with and called names and unethical.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - David M - 08-28-2008
I hope you file a 1099 for what you paid him.
David
Ninole Resident
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - John S. Rabi - 08-28-2008
quote:Make it better, don't send him a copy! [}
Originally posted by David M
I hope you file a 1099 for what you paid him.
David
Ninole Resident
][}][}]Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,ARB,BFT,CM,CBR,FHS,PB,RB
808.989.1314
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - Kahunascott - 08-29-2008
Kathy,
Please don’t feel that I’m insulting you in my post but your complaints are post construction and most of them could have been alleviated if you took more time and effort before hiring a contractor. Most of what happened to you is your own fault, outside the verbal abuse, but that goes hand in hand with the type of contractor that you selected.
Because this “guy” is working under the loophole of $1,000 contracts I’m guessing he’s not incorporated, licensed or insured! Please correct me if I’m wrong but I didn’t see these requirements mentioned in your post.
I belong to a contractors association and we are currently working on licensing all contractors. But, as long as homeowners think they know better and think they are going to save a buck, these type of situations will continue to occur.
First, a reparable contractor (Financially sound) should never ask for money up front AND YOU SHOULD NEVER PAY IT. Unless of course you feel it prudent as a deposit to schedule the work. But I still say no way! If a contractor doesn’t have the funds to pay his staff and for the required materials for the project you don’t hire them. Cash payments have NO PLACE in contracted work.
Furthermore, it’s not a bid but a quote unless he was formally bidding against other contractors, which is the correct way to let a contract, no matter how small. The quote should be attached to the contract along with his certificate of insurance with you named as additional insured.
When he changed the terms of the contract by recommending additional/change in the route and requesting that more material then required in the quote, the red flag goes up and you stop the project until the parties have reached a consensus.
Lump sum is the way to go unless you have defined “terms and conditions” in the contract. It may cost a bit more because the contractor needs to cover items that he may not identify but it saves you time and the predicament you may experience if you leave out components of the project.
You should have taken pictures before the start of the project and had a sketch of what your anticipated project should look like when completed.
Now for the serious elements:
If a contractor is in not a Corporation, LLC or self-proprietor you can be sued easily in small claims courts. Without documentation to support your case, it becomes “he said she said”. GOOD LUCK
No license, no good. Licenses show a level of competence for contractors. In your case a Landscapers license would cover this type of construction. Check with the State licensing board, the BBB and a number of other organizations for complaints regarding any contractors.
No insurance, WOW. General liability, auto and workman’s comp are the very basic requirements a contractor should have before starting any project. Don’t let a contractor tell you that the project is to small for this requirement, it doesn’t cost them anything to provide you with this coverage. If the business is self-proprietor and he is the only employee he is not required to carry WC.
You’re not out of the woods on this either just because the project is complete. If this guy is the *$^@) you say he is he could very easily get hurt today and say it happened on your property during your project and you could be liable for medical bills and lost wages. This is a very big mistake and could cost you more then you think.
Since you don’t have a defined contract he could also place a mechanics lien on your property for non-payment. This lien would have to be satisfied before any sale of the property.
I could go on and on but I think you get the point.
I hope this information will help a few of you when contracting in the future.
"Many dreams come true and some have silver linings, I look for my dreams and a pocket full of gold" Led Zeppelin