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+--- Thread: RE: Condominium Ownership (/showthread.php?tid=8647)
RE: Condominium Ownership - Dennis - 03-22-2011
Can anyone explain the difference between Fee Simple Ownership and CPR Ownership? I have never heard of CPR Ownership here in Ohio.
Thanks.
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - Carey - 03-23-2011
I am hoping one of our real estate gurus will come in with a further &/or better description, as this is not to be anything but what I SEEM to remember while looking at property on the other side last year....
There are building lots here that are held in "Condominium" ownership. These are lots that may have had an ohana or double residence on a single lot that was not subdivided. The lots are held in common, and both owners are responsible for things like taxes. There may, or may not, be fences & walls "dividing" the property, but there is no legal division of the property.
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - Dennis - 03-23-2011
Thanks Carey. We are looking at some condos and this type of ownership came up.
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - John S. Rabi - 03-23-2011
There is no such a thing as "CPR Ownership, it's either Fee Simple or Leasehold ownership. Fee simple means total ownership while Leasehold means you own the improvements but lease the land the improvements are built on. "CPR" means "Condominium Property Regime" and you have percentage ownership of the common elements of the condominium complex. CPR is the last number that is added to the usual 3-X-X-X-X TMK number as the sixth number, identifying the actual condominium unit. (Thus it's 3-X-X-X-X-Y.)
If you have more questions feel free to e-mail me privately.
Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,PB,ABR,CRB,CM,FHS
888.819.9669
johnrabi@johnrabi.com
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
(This is what I think of the Kona Board of Realtors http://KonaBoardOfRealtors.info)
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - kimo wires - 03-23-2011
There are contracts that can be entered into that are close however.
Joint tenancy and Tenants in Common.
Smoke and Mirror tactics in real estate...
I wouldn't enter into a deal like this unless I had a powerful real estate attorney as a close friend.
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - missydog1 - 03-23-2011
There are pieces of land (ag land), that were divided by CPR prior to the moratorium. I know numerous people who have bought it, who have done the CPR's, and my husband I have actually owned two CPR properties.
There was nothing sketchy about it. There was only one water meter, so we needed a sub-meter, but otherwise the properties were completely separate other than an access easement for the driveway to the landlocked parcel -- title, insurance, boundaries, all were clear.
It was a way of subdividing ag land that cannot be subdivided because the class of ag land requires more land. Our first CPR was a 2 acre parcel that was CPR'd into a 2 acre and a 1 acre in an Ag-3 zone.
The second one was only a 10K foot parcel, and the front was small too.
If you were to look at land in North Kohala, you would see CPR's everywhere. Of all the property we looked at up there, probably more than 50% was CPR, and our best friends there had all bought or created CPR property.
I have no idea how much of it there was done in Puna, can't recall looking at any.
As with all situations where you have to share something with another landowner, like a driveway, it is something to take into consideration. I've had five shared driveway situations, and three of them were not CPR, and actually the two that were CPR were entirely amicable -- whereas two where it was an easement but not CPR the neighbors were not good at sharing.
Perhaps people who buy CPR realize that some mutual cooperation is part of the deal, don't know, hate to generalize like that. Just my own experience.
You should have a real estate agent, Dennis. He or she will explain it to you.
btw, I have looked at property with as many as 8 CPR units. Typically it is an even number of units. It is nothing like owning a condo in a complex, because there are no common areas other than any driveway situation, and there are no monthly maintenance fees. Also, the property tax was completely separate, as was the HELCO.
It is only the water company (in North and South Kohala) which will not issue a separate meter for the CPRl
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - John S. Rabi - 03-23-2011
quote:I'm sorry, since the question was about CPR I automatically assumed it was a condo complex question, since agricultural condos are few and far between compared to the number of condo complexes. However, ag condos legally are not different than condo (CPR) complexes.
Originally posted by KathyH
There are pieces of land (ag land), that were divided by CPR prior to the moratorium...It is nothing like owning a condo in a complex, because there are no common areas other than any driveway situation, and there are no monthly maintenance fees. Also, the property tax was completely separate, as was the HELCO.
When you buy an ag condo you don't own the land it is built on, but own a certain percentage of the whole land area. The land area the house (ag condo) is built on is classified as a "limited common area" meaning while you don't own that part of the land area, you have the exclusive right to use it.
Property tax is just as separate for an ag condo as it is for the condo unit in a condo complex, and electricity is charged by the individual units in both cases. Like a 100-unit condo complex, even a two-unit ag condo still has only one water meter. Whoever has the water meter is responsible for the payment. That's why the water is included in the monthly association dues at the condo complexes. It means if you have a submeter in an ag condo at the person having the water meter doesn't pay the bill, you can end up with no water.
Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,PB,ABR,CRB,CM,FHS
888.819.9669
johnrabi@johnrabi.com
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
(This is what I think of the Kona Board of Realtors http://KonaBoardOfRealtors.info)
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - missydog1 - 03-23-2011
I understand what you're saying, John, but in point of fact of actual usage, the ag condo is treated differently by the owners. In a condo complex, the entire outside area (other than lanai) is treated as a common area. In an ag condo, the owners respect a boundary on the land as well the interior of the building. Like I said, I have lived in two of them, and there was never any question at all of the other CPR owner acting like what was mine was his or vice versa. It was all very clear. The other owner landscaped his land, and we landscaped ours, with no concern that our investments were not solidly our own. Walls were built, and none of the improvements were owned in common.
We signed an agreement as to the water usage as part of the purchase, and there was never any question of anyone letting the water bill slide. Nor do I know anyone who has had their water turned off.
When we sold the property, there was not the slightest issue about it being a CPR, just one more set of docs to review and an approval contingency similar to CC&R's. Not an issue.
That said, we weren't dealing with absentee owners or anything like that.
While this form of ownership may not be real common in parts of the island, it is very common in Kohala, where there are lots of ag condos and few if any condo complexes. In fact, last year my husband and I looked at a property up near Hawi, and it too was a CPR. It was very easy to do prior to 2003 or thereabouts.
There are a lot of ag parcels up there that aren't suitable for farms, and where one acre was more than enough for people. I have seen a number of them where a Hui created a multi-unit CPR for a family, probably as a way of dividing an inheritance. When we first came here looking for property, and looked in Kohala, we were shown one CPR property after another.
It is really not something to fear. I had never heard of it before I moved here either, but I have no complaints after buying and selling two of them, and I would not be afraid to buy another one.
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - Dennis - 03-24-2011
I apologize, this is in regards to a condominium complex.
Thanks,
Dennis
RE: RE: Condominium Ownership - John S. Rabi - 03-24-2011
quote:Kathy, what two neighbors of an ag condo do and how they treat the property or each other is a moot point. I only answered the legal aspects. BTW, the lanais are common area at most condos but classified as "limited common area" for the use of the owner living in the apartment "attached" to the lanai.
Originally posted by KathyH
I understand what you're saying, John, but in point of fact of actual usage, the ag condo is treated differently by the owners. In a condo complex, the entire outside area (other than lanai) is treated as a common area.
Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,PB,ABR,CRB,CM,FHS
888.819.9669
johnrabi@johnrabi.com
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
(This is what I think of the Kona Board of Realtors http://KonaBoardOfRealtors.info)