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Without permits, some people would build firetraps that are a danger to themselves and others ... to be lava safe it is best not to build on a volcano.
Point being: there's a huge disconnect here. How can it be "permissible" to build on an active volcano that will turn any building into a "firetrap"?
LZ1 (and, probably, LZ2) should have been a wild-west style "live and let live" zone, not another "permit-license-fee-inspection" residential subdivision.
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I don't want a lava proof house. I don't want to move my house, and I don't want to reoccupy my land if it gets inundated with lava. If the lava comes I want the insurance company to pay off the mortgage, give me a fat check for my equity, and I'll start over somewhere else.
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quote:
Originally posted by kalakoa
Without permits, some people would build firetraps that are a danger to themselves and others ... to be lava safe it is best not to build on a volcano.
Point being: there's a huge disconnect here. How can it be "permissible" to build on an active volcano that will turn any building into a "firetrap"?
LZ1 (and, probably, LZ2) should have been a wild-west style "live and let live" zone, not another "permit-license-fee-inspection" residential subdivision.
The big difference is this: if you have a typical slow moving lava flow you have to really try to die from it, but if you live in a house with funky wiring and no fire blocks in the walls a fire can rip through your house in no time and kill everyone in it. It is one thing to have a natural disaster take your house after you emptied it of your belongings, it is another to have a person deliberately build and sell a house that is unsafe fire wise, just to cut a few corners and save some money.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelena
The County has no choice, since Puna is part of Hawaii County and it's the law. Without permits, some people would build firetraps that are a danger to themselves and others, like that guy in Seaview.
Savvy libertarians favor Somalia for its expansive approach to "open carry" and its utter lack of regulation. No permits required to build there.
As for building lava safe, I hate to state the obvious but to be lava safe it is best not to build on a volcano. Few feats of human engineering can compete with the power of a volcano that's got its mojo back.
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LZ1 (and, probably, LZ2) should have been a wild-west style "live and let live" zone, not another "permit-license-fee-inspection" residential subdivision...
I don't think that model applies. There are other rural areas in Hawaii that have natural limitation, that do not exist on the grid or have other first world community infrastructure, and yet their property owners pay their taxes and are subject to zoning laws and all that. They just don't have access to conventional financing and insurance etc.
In other words I think once the illusion of suburbia dissolves it will be the free market and profit/loss that will determine the fate of the lands that fall in lava zone 1 and 2, more than anything the government can do.
And yeah it'll probably look a bit more like the wild-west than suburbia, but hey that's always been a part of Pahoa's charm methinks.
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My house may be as safe for lava as one can get. It will handle 2,000 degree heat without burning. My intention was not to withstand lava... by intention was to withstand a much more conventional threat - fire.
There are no towns in the country with a lava department. Every town has a fire department. All of us are at risk every day from common house fires. Mine will structurally survive a house fire. Most won't. But if lava surrounds my home I am screwed.
Assume the best and ask questions.
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There are other rural areas in Hawaii that have natural limitation, that do not exist on the grid or have other first world community infrastructure, and yet their property owners pay their taxes and are subject to zoning laws and all that. They just don't have access to conventional financing and insurance etc.
Example for comparison?
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Gotta love it. Thread has a snowball's chance in Halemaumau of staying on topic.
No, not sure how anyone will pay for it (but like "with debit cards"). Thinking more like how do you invest your funds if you want your grandkids and beyond to be able to live in the house you build, knowing there will be 1-2 flows in that time. Interested in how insurance might want to rate for lava danger and other govt/private financial systems to share risk and make lava survivability a value proposition.
Understand it's best not to build on a volcano, but someone will try first. I like helco's attempts to save their power poles but that was just the beginning of the learning curve. If we can get people in and out of orbit we can make non-firetraps in some lava hazard areas. Not try to withstand aa flows like royal gardens saw, just slow but eventually 20-30 foot pahoehoe flows like the current one, that means time to intervene and jack up the home/power pole/etc. as the lava comes. Anyone know what is the maximum depth of some the bigger lava areas in this flow? Or the Kalapana or Kapoho flows? Maybe you target survivability to about 20 feet but you give up if you are unfortunate enough to be right where Pele decides to put the lava tube. If all construction were 20 foot survivable you might get a 50% success rate or better for items actually contacting lava.
Maybe USGS would help by updating their blue line maps from time to time, and give people a little better idea than just LZ numbers what risks apply to what land? Or insurance companies do the same thing in their own self interest (given freedom to rate for risk)?
pbmaise can you share any of the engineering/construction specifics of the Bobs? And Rob how can your house survive fire? Maybe Bob2 has already been explained. Not sure if everyone could build their own hill. It would sure look interesting if more than a few people tried.
I was thinking hi temp metal sleeve inside concrete shell for the columns but haven't researched temp performance yet. Whatever is used might have to take up to 2000F for a few hours and over 1000F for days. Some ceramics might be helpful but might be OMG expensive. Good thought on the underside heat shield too. Could use active cooling if needed, but might be hard to get enough coolant, power to run fans/pumps etc. in place. Maybe you generate your own power from the heat. Maybe geothermal becomes a cottage industry.
JL
JL
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http://www.nps.gov/havo/faqs.htm
Lava in the Kamoamoa area is about 15 feet (5 m) deep where it first crossed the road. Lava from the Kupaianaha eruption is about 75 feet (25 m) deep at Queens Bath, 50-75 feet (16-25 m) feet deep in Kalapana, and 45 feet (15 m) near the sea cliff at mid-flow.
