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If someone is of the opinion that 50 helicopters are flying over their house and it bothers them
Maybe "50 flights/day" is exaggeration, fine, let's move on: what's a "reasonable" number of flights/day? Five? Ten? Twenty? Does altitude matter?
Hawaii Island Coalition Malama Pono (HICOP)
More importantly: did these guys get permission from the Native Hawaiians to use "their" words? Or are some words not sacred?
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Maybe "50 flights/day" is exaggeration, fine, let's move on: what's a "reasonable" number of flights/day? Five? Ten? Twenty? Does altitude matter?
Ino was going to log and record noise levels. Noise level is all the FAA really worries about so you have to prove it to them that:
A. Helicoptors are the cause
B. Noise levels are excessive
I found his old post
http://punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22898&whichpage=1 [Posted - 10/28/2016 : 18:43:10] FYI -- MarkD: If you read that whole thread you'll see I also was involved in that conversation too.
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Noise level is all the FAA really worries about so you have to prove it to them
...and what will FAA accept as "proof"?
I'm not seeing an insurmountable technical problem, here; surely FAA has specifications, and some way to authenicate measurements from the field.
Measurements would be trivial if the helicopters were required to use ADS-B, but that's not mandatory until 1/1/20 (blithely assuming it even applies to our airspace).
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From Paul W on excessive helicopter noise: There is no proof. That is the definition of unproven...
Interesting your emphasis on proof for excessive noise. And you even describe the opposition as "lies." The TMT folks did the same thing in one or two instances, describing peoples' objections to something related to telescopes (that was of an aesthetic nature) as lies. No, they were opinions.
(This was pretty isolated; generally the pro-TMT side has been reasoned.)
Sorry to disabuse you, but people are entitled to opinions about dislikes. And many are hard to prove. Excessive noise. Racism. Desecration of natural areas. Decibel levels is objective, but people disagree on what levels should be. Frequency is even a bigger problem. How many helicopter passes are objectionable? What is excessive dog barking? (big issue here) Highly subjective topics.
What reasonable policy makers do is try to make good judgments. Years ago 1 or 2 fussy old ladies living near the Waikiki Shell kept complaining about excessive noise from Friday night concerts. Did they have proof? (the decibels varied with the wind.) Not really, but they were so persistent in complaining that unfortunately some officials irresponsibly caved and turned the music way done. Later other officials told the ladies they would have to be more tolerant.
I suppose the helicopter industry views the opposition like the fussy ladies of Waikiki. A few extreme malcontents, hunkered down in isolated cabins shaking a fist at the sky at every helicopter pass. Sorry, the issue has much broader support. It is nationwide. I already posted the New York story; L.A. is also dealing with the issue. More than a few malcontents, I'd say.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...story.html
The upshot, of course, is that the helicopter industry wants minimal or no regulation.
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MarkD, I think you just enjoy typing. TMT? Huh? Noise is just an opinion? What?
Anyway all that has to be shown is Aircraft X produced Y dB of noise at Z location and time. There are very clear regulations of what is allowed by the FAA
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea...se_issues/
There are also clear guidelines as to how to measure it. However I doubt they are violating the noise limits and I've not seen any data from their efforts of logging flights or using a sound meter. If they can't prove those things, then for the most part HiCoP are left to just make more noise.
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You're not getting paid per word any more. I say it's unproven, you say it's just a matter of opinion.
So you agree with me, it's unproven.
Lying is maybe a strong word, but I keep asking where all the helicopters are and I get no response. Conclusion? Irrational exuberance?
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You say apples, I say oranges.
You say JMO, I say lies can be dressed up as opinions. Even intentionally.
The Donner Party really wasn't that great of a party, was it?
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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From Eric1600: MarkD, I think you just enjoy typing. TMT? Huh? Noise is just an opinion? What?
Let me unpackage this for you. It is not that complicated. Here is one of PaulW's statements: I just can't stand by while lies are spread around. As in whether helicopter noise is excessive, either by its volume or frequency.
A statement that it is excessive is an opinion. Just like someone bothered by a barking dog, where a neighbor might not be bothered by the dog. One person is bothered. Another is not.
Opinions. Not facts. Hence no lies are involved. Just like the statement that TMT construction would result in Mauna Kea being overbuilt. That is an opinion, not a lie. The general debate here is not about specific violations, but the broad opinion that there are far to many helicopters flights and that they are too noisy across the board.
You are electing to be dense, and I am being charitable by using the word electing.
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MarkD,
There is reasonable and unreasonable... An operation I was involved in several years ago received repeated multiple complaints about excessive night time noise. On several nights, I measured the noise level at one of the most persistent complainants front gate and the highest noise level I got was ~35 dBA.
There are daytime and nighttime noise standards established for urban and for rural areas in Hawaii. If noise levels exceed those levels, then the presumption is that those are excessive levels. The converse is equally true. That's why they are called standards...
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Geochem, I will not dispute that there have been false or exaggerated individual complaints. There probably have been a large number, perhaps akin to the folks who kept complaining about geothermal emissions at PGV.
But the broad sentiment here and also many places nationwide is 1) that there are far too many helicopters flights 2) that they fly in too many places (not enough restrictions pertaining to natural areas like National Parks) and 3) that they are too loud. Again, in New York the industry was forced cut half its flights.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manh...-1.2515497
I appreciate that this type of talk is highly unpalatable to the industry, with all its owners and employees (decent people I am sure), but there is nothing else for me to say on the economic impacts to the industry of more restriction.
