Mauna Loa erupting

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

would have to shift 2-3 miles in some areas and reach Hilo north of the Wailuku River (see orange line on attached). Probably not in the budget 

Thanks for the map ironyak, it is quite a shift in places.  
As a Puna resident who drove in afternoon rush hour traffic an extra 30-40 minutes every afternoon for about 10 years before Highway 130 was improved, with plenty of time on my hands thinking about how many cars did that every day, and how many people lost hours of their life waiting in traffic, how much gas was burned idling…

I'm now look at the same people-time-gas waste factor should Saddle Road be closed for a period of time - - and I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper, in the long run, if the road was built with a longer potential lifespan calculated into it's construction?

Taxpayers pay for roads.  But taxpayers also lose time and pay more for gas if road construction is delayed or budgeted at "the lowest cost."  Which choice really costs taxpayers more, the lowest construction cost, or the best construction for the circumstances?  (Which includes the actual and projected population increase in areas like Puna)

[TomK]

It seems to me that if you are intent on putting a road through an area that is prone to lava flows, in a lot of cases it would be best to put it right on top of the most recent flow.  Especially in flat, level areas.

In these areas the flow tends to inflate and reach substantial thicknesses.  So wouldn’t a subsequent flow tend to go alongside the previous one, rather than on top of it?

I know there are plenty of variables and these are just my ramblings, but don’t you think there might be more to the decision than “easier to grade”?

Perhaps it would have been even more sensible to have built the new highway a few hundred yards to the north in the most vulnerable area to ML lava flows, i.e., just a little way up on the slopes of Mauna Kea? I realize that might be private land, but building a modern highway where lava would pool near the MK and ML access roads could have been avoided.

[ironyak]

300 years yards to the north wouldn't cut it as the 1935 flow extends north of Saddle by about a half mile in some places. Also, it's not private land there, but rather Hawaiian Homestead Conservation lands for most of that stretch. After that you'd ultimately have to go through multiple $500,000+ lots or tracts of Bishop Estate lands to reach Hilo north of the Wailuku river and outside the reach of Mauna Loa's lava flows. Still think it would just be simple to relocate the road off its current plat?

The original trail was actually farther north up by the Humu'ula Sheep Station, likely because it was easier to move horse and sheep over the grassy areas rather than over the old 'a'a lava flows. But when the road was put it, it was placed on the 1935-6 flow because that was easier for making a road and when pavement was added and the highway expanded the road's path was used because it too was the most efficient option at the time (especially given the legal landscape of the area). Much like lava, choices tend to follow the path of least resistance for a reason.

[TomK]

Oh, I don't know. Maybe if some genius road engineer said "let's build parts of the road that are subject to Mauna Loa lava flows a little above the bottom of the Saddle where lava might go - lava doesn't flow uphill". The highway certainly doesn't follow the old Saddle Road all of the way, so clearly they didn't have to follow the route of the old Saddle Road. But no, let's build it in a place where the next Mauna Loa eruption on the NE rift zone will cut the highway off.

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"300 years to the north wouldn't cut it as the 1935 flow extends north of Saddle by about a half mile in some places. Also, it's not private land there, but rather Hawaiian Homestead Conservation lands for most of that stretch. After that you'd ultimately have to go through multiple $500,000+ lots or tracts of Bishop Estate lands to reach Hilo north of the Wailuku river and outside the reach of Mauna Loa's lava flows. Still think it would just be simple to relocate the road off its current plat?"

Oh, I don't know. Maybe if some genius road engineer said "let's build parts of the road that are subject to Mauna Loa lava flows a little above the bottom of the Saddle where lava might go - lava doesn't flow uphill". The highway certainly doesn't follow the old Saddle Road all of the way, so clearly they didn't have to follow the route of the old Saddle Road. But no, let's build it in a place where the next Mauna Loa eruption on the NE rift zone will cut the highway off plus put the Mauna Kea summit access road in danger of being inaccessible.

300 years to the north? Seriously?

[ironyak]

Thanks for the typo check - now maybe you'd want to fix your double reply?

As already noted and mapped out, all of the east half of Saddle road sits in the inundation zones for Mauna Loa so it would have to be moved many miles to avoid another future genius from questioning why they didn't just place the road outside the lava's reach (using computer predicted descent paths based on digital elevation models several decades before either were invented, at many times the cost, and breaking century old property rights in the process). The western extent of Saddle was realigned in parts largely through other state land which is obviously much simpler.

Eveything seems easy when you don't bother to know anything about the situation. I might as easily say how hard can it be to build a telescope on a mountain where it's been done several times before? Recent history shows it's apparently quite hard - maybe even impossible.

[kalakoa]

Eveything seems easy when you don't bother to know anything about the situation.

Wait for road to be destroyed, declare emergency, apply for Federal bailout.

It really is that easy.

[ironyak]

kalakoa - Wait for road to be destroyed, declare emergency, apply for Federal bailout.
Yep - nothing easier than taking no action and letting others pay for the consequences in the form of nationalized debt to be possibly paid in the future at reduced cost through monetary inflation - financialization for the win i.e. "you can ching, ching, ching, cash in on this tragedy!"

HOTPE - I'm now look at the same people-time-gas waste factor should Saddle Road be closed for a period of time - - and I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper, in the long run, if the road was built with a longer potential lifespan calculated into it's construction?

Cheaper to whom is an important part of these decisions of course (see above). There is also Jevons paradox to consider and while there may be less gas/time/resources used on each cross-island trip using Saddle, this convenience actually leads to more trips being made, such as additional Costco runs, shipping all trash from Hilo side to Kona side, or thousands of cars conveniently popping up to view an eruption each night, and in aggregate more gas/time/resources are actually now being spent.

While most of us who have been here for a bit know that Saddle is a more recent convenience that we've all gotten along without before, and may have to do so again, and if you believe local government has any concern over your loss of convenience, then you haven't been here long enough!

[Durian Fiend]

While most of us who have been here for a bit know that Saddle is a more recent convenience that we've all gotten along without before, and may have to do so again...

How long was it closed in ‘84?

[My 2 cents]

Indeed, crossing Saddle Road in 1980 was quite the adventure. Think one lane most of the way, and not a very good lane at that!

[MyManao]

How long was it closed in ‘84?

I think it closed on day 3 of the 21 day eruption and opened soon after it was pau.