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Bob,
The Supreme Court has consistently ruled on these matters with regard to public safety. Be it a matter of driving, flying, manufacturing, services, medical, etc, etc. Apply the two following test as they do.
To what level does the issue rise?
(a) The Interest of Public Safety
(b) The Interest of Personal Safety
The answers can only be (A and B) or (B) and never (A) alone.
To engage in the professional business aspect of plumbing, electrical and building rises to an interest of public safety because the individuals work is exposed to many within the public as they engage in the active business of these matters.
The OB’s work is subject only to a personal level until that work consists of a project that might rise to a level of a public safety interest.
It’s a simple matter of public safety interests vs. personal safety interest.
It’s no different than the following aspect:
An OB cannot build his or her own apartment complex in Hawaii and most other States because that rises to the level of a public safety interest.
An OB is limited to build only a Single Family home in the state of Hawaii and most all other States.
To what level of interest does the issue rise?
The septic system argument has not been proven to be applicable to plumbing and electrical work because the interest level in question is not the same.
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
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Obie... here's your flying pig.
http://www.gmanews.tv/video/17511/san-jo...-explosion
There are more too...
How many flying pigs would you like to see today?
http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/envi...BD316.html
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
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What safety issues are you talking about that can not be addressed by an inspection?
How many people are killed each year due to faulty electrical work? How many people each year are killed from faulty gas plumbing? How many people are killed each year due to exploding septic or methane gas inhalation?
Has every single septic installed by a licensed septic contractor in Hawaii County passed its first inspection?
If the alternate argument that the judge of quality and code adherence is the inspection, why does that not apply to septic systems as well?
Just to get a balance approach to this, you don't have a vested interest in the septic contracting trade, do you?
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Bob,
Just use number 4 and the junction citations.
As per the cited restrictions, septic, wells etc… All those things will just be a matter of time before they are eventually adopted OB exercised restrictions within the code, just like the restriction to single family only dwellings.
I just wanted to point them out; I had no intention of debating them.
LOL... heck no Bob, I've never built a septic system in my life (unless you're counting a few holes when camping) but I've decommissioned several of them.
BTW... I would never endorse a takings for my own commercial interest, that would be up there with Treason IMO.
Also... we will not be installing a cesspool (I don't like them at all) nor will we be using a conventional septic system. We'll be installing a much more advanced sewage treatment system. I'd like to point out that Hawaii will probably be calling for these types of more advanced waste treatment systems in non-"dirt" bearing soils building sites in the near future.
I'll try again.
"What safety issues are you talking about that can not be addressed by an inspection?" It's not so much an inspection to satisfy a safety issue as it is an issue of public endangerment combined with public liability should such a system explode. If you consider all the other aspects of related construction exercised projects by the OB, they do not bring in the equation of public endangerment and therefore bare no burdens of liability to the public. This is an odd situation because Hawaii allows cesspools whereas most do not. When you consider a septic system, the system is built to a standard in which the biological threats are minimized to the ground water supply. So if we were in a state that only allowed septic systems and prohibited cesspools, the argument could be raised that a public endangerment exists with regard to biological and chemical contaminates entering the ground water supply. In this case we are right back to public endangerment and public liability.
So cesspools are a mute point with regard to public liability as long as the state permits them, thus... who gives a rats rip who puts them, they are going to contaminate nearly every well down grade of their location regardless of a passed inspection or not.
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
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quote:
Originally posted by Wao nahele kane
It's not so much an inspection to satisfy a safety issue as it is an issue of public endangerment combined with public liability should such a system explode.
O.K., I understand what you are saying. See I thought that a septic system was inspected by the County to ensure all the safety, health and code issues were done correctly. I wasn't aware that the licensed septic contractor, designed, installed and self inspected their own system. Under that explanation, I agree the O/B should not be installing septic systems because there are no County inspections and so nobody is checking the system for compliance to health, safety and building codes.
I was confused because the argument that an O/B should be able to do their own electrical and plumbing made sense because the County was inspecting it for code compliance and the inspector should be failing any inspection that wasn't to code. Since they are not inspecting septic systems and only going on the word of the licensed septic contractor that they did it correctly, the County wouldn't have that same trust in an O/B. So, unlike foundations, structural elements, electric and plumbing which are inspected by the County, septic are not.
That's a sweet deal for licensed septic contractors that their wok isn't inspected otherwise the arguments why an O/B should be allowed to do electric/plumbing because its inspected for quality and compliance would still hold true for septic systems as well.
Its also a sweet deal for the County since nobody can ever come back to them should a septic system be designed or installed against health, safety and building codes. Since they are not checking for these, the public can never hold them responsible for any failures of a system that was designed or installed poorly by a licensed septic contractor.
See, I learned something new today.
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I'm not even sure you can come back to the county over any work, as the onus is on the owner to have the documentation on permitted work. Unlike some counties, this county does not keep records of the technical drafts for the permit work done. The county records are merely a report in spreadsheet form, so it is very hard to delineate what work was actually permitted.
If work is found that is not to code, at the time (or any code...), the county response is that unless you have the originals for the work done, this is most likely not the work that was permitted. so keep all of those records (even the permit!) for later reference.
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Bob...
I'm not sure about Hawaii with regard to septic tank inspections but in Washington, the septic systems are still inspected by the health district in most counties/cities or by the local public civil engineer (a municipality call). It's sort of similar to why they inspect a plan with regard to a structural engineer approved plan aspect. It's merely a secondary back up check to make sure all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed.
Who handles the septic permits in CoH? I thought it was the Health District. Do they inspect the work after it's done? I think they might, but I don't know for sure.
When it boils down to it, there are public interest liabilities involved in the septic tank matters just as there are with the cesspool.
When an OB plumbs, wires or builds the single family structure of his or her own home, there is no public safety interest liability. Only if they drill a well, put in a septic system/cesspool, geothermal/nuclear/hydro electric power plant, manufacturing plant, public facility and or multi family dwelling is there a public safety interest liability.
I only removed the "cesspool" from the list by virtue of it's inherent inevitable contamination of the local ground water, if buried it's simplicity of design and near non ability to explode. It will no doubt contaminate the public ground water, therefore why lay a burden of liability on something that is failure by desing and will infect the public regardless of inspection. The liability is 100% on the shoulders of the State that allows a cesspool thus the public endangerment and contamination of it's citizens.
If the OB were to build his or her house and do everything well below the standards of code with regard to plumbing, electrical and structure... who will be effected should it catch on fire, fall down or leak sewer gas into the house? Only the OB related occupants of the house will be effected. The effects begin and end with the OB and his or her immediate family. These are individual safety issues and not public related safety issues.
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
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quote:
Originally posted by Wao nahele kane
Obie... here's your flying pig.
http://www.gmanews.tv/video/17511/san-jo...-explosion
There are more too...
How many flying pigs would you like to see today?
http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/envi...BD316.html
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
The first example is in the Philippines and I don't think their codes are quite the same as ours.Also it looks like the point of ignition was somewhere in the house.You can tell that by the singed books and lack of major fire damage.It then traveled down the sewer line to the septic or cesspool where a major explosion occurred.This could have been due to no traps or no water in the traps.
Your second example is just a warning not an actual case and it pertains more to asphyxiation.
I would be more worried about improper gas piping leading to an explosion that could damage neighboring structures.This has occurred over and over.
Also many hot water heaters have exploded because and unknowing home owner removed the T & P valve and installed a plug.
Look at this video of an exploding tank.
http://www.waterheaterblast.com/
I know this was staged so here is one of many examples of a real explosion.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/14480623/detail.html
Perhaps Hawaii is correct in requiring a permit and plumbing license to replace a water heater.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Orts...
O.K., I understand what you are saying. See I thought that a septic system was inspected by the County to ensure all the safety, health and code issues were done correctly. I wasn't aware that the licensed septic contractor, designed, installed and self inspected their own system. Under that explanation, I agree the O/B should not be installing septic systems because there are no County inspections and so nobody is checking the system for compliance to health, safety and building codes....
Actually the licensed installers don't do their own inspections. The civil engineers like Paul Nash or previously Ron Nickles did the inspections (well they have crew they use for the inspections) and then submit inspections to DOH when completed. No DOH employee comes out to inspect a new installation.
-Cat
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Obie,
Common hot water tanks are built off site in a manufacturing plant and design regulated by Federal standards, they are not constructed by the OB or made on-site, they are installed products.
Septic Systems are constructed on-site unless they are a manufactured ATU and those are built off site and through federal regulations. Regardless of explosion matters there remains the ground water contamination factor involved.
There are inherent differences by virtue of who actually builds the device vs simple installation of a pre-manufactured device.
Here again, the citations are not tit for tat, break the issue down to it's finite to find the answer to the test in question.
I will agree with your point regarding gas lines as these rise to a level of a public safety interest liability should a line leak in a wall and combust causing the house to explode and damage other homes in the neighborhood. Although, this is a matter that walks a thin line between one direction or the other because of the inherent simplicity involved in doping and screwing fittings together and it's not a technical matter by todays standards. However, the threading machines to thread gas pipe etc... when it boils down to it, the home owner wouldn't get much of a savings doing the gas lines themselves. Gas lines are typically pressure tested and inspected before hook up. If they don't leak... they don't leak and more than likely never will, not in the walls, near service junctions perhaps, but this is common regardless of who installs the lines.
The hot water tank is manufactured and if the appropriate pressure release valve is installed, the tanks operation is in check. Thus, I would semi agree with a licensed gas contractor being necessary to provide the gas feed and valve for a gas fired hot water tank but the Gas contractor would not be necessary to set the tank or "hook up" the gas flex line or water lines. An electric hot water tank can be installed by the OB in all aspects.
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
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