11-16-2015, 09:47 AM
dakine:
But for now, if my detractors could just show even the slightest amount of intelligence and post an opposing view, a thought-out rebuttal to anything I write here, rather than just calling me names, I'll be amazed.
I suspect you hear the name calling louder than the rest, but it is not all there is. "Get these religious nuts off the mountain..." is not a direct name-calling to you, is it? Or maybe it is if you are one of the protestors on the 'mountain'. Dunno.
My goodness, there is so many better ways to spend a couple billion dollars than building a telescope. In better times, sure built the scopes, look at the stars, answer all those lofty questions. But gee to call all that important, to put it before dealing with real life threatening issues that are on our plate today, is vain. After all the origins of the universe aren't going anywhere we can look at them once the keiki are assured of a healthy and prosperous future.
The sorry truth seems to be that blocking the construction of TMT will do _nothing_ to assure the keiki a healthy and prosperous future, either. A classic red herring.
Bringing up how you believe other countries' and other people's money should be spent is also kinda irrelevant to whether the protestors are generally more or less reasonable than the average, more or less subject to "groupthink", exhibit more or less religious zealotry than others, or "nutty".
I previously posted that "haoles go home" seems a legitimate sentiment and not one that offends me really. Worse would be never to hear that sentiment though it remained in many minds. Calling the protestors religious nuts is in the same league of thought, at least to me.
Or what? Is it just a means to bolster your own ego? Make you feel better? Superior? Stoke your vanity along with Tom's?
I would ask the same of the protestors. Is this an exercise designed to make them feel better? Do they need to feel better because of events before they were born, or for other reasons?
And beside, locally, imo, it is far more important to heal the wounds that were caused by the overthrow and subsequent behavior of the dominant society since, towards the Hawaiian people. If not for us, then for our children and grandchildren. So that they may learn, and perpetuate, a better way to live with all the differences between people. So that they may have a chance to be freed of the arrogance and vanity that is so prevalent in our society today.
From certain POV's the protestors come across as arrogant, abusive, and vain. And yet I appreciate that you feel bad about certain aspects of Hawaiian history to the exclusion of other aspects--and that you are not alone in feeling so (though can't really follow the train of thought that leaves you oppressed or wounded).
But once, again, I can not, for the life of me, understand what you think preventing the TMT has to do with the integrity of future generations. One might cynically view the TMT protests as teaching the keiki BY EXAMPLE about the same arrogance and vanity you say you are trying to eradicate.
If preventing TMT construction somehow healed your wounds and somehow magically ended the whole entitlement by history/heredity thing, I would be somewhat persuaded. But if there is a non-zero chance that you're wounded/oppressed feelings are something of your own making then it could be that 100 TMT constructions could be blocked and nothing about that feeling would change.
Its like when I point out how vain I think TomK is, how he strokes his vanity, and how mean spirited he is to those he disagrees with, it drives him nuts.
And the reverse is just as true. When someone points out how vain and mean the protestors are, with or without "naughty" name-calling words, it seems to drive them (or at least their sympathizers here) to frustration to a degree.
I am always amazed how some may want others to behave in a certain way but go about it by insulting them and still expect compliance.
Do you see that your words could have been written by the other side about the protestors! They want others (from around the world) to behave in a certain way (not build TMT) but go about it by the insulting, arrogant, vain act of blockading the TMT--and go further, saying there will be no compromise whatsoever. They think that their "interpretation is right, whereas the others...that have opposing views are wrong? You do realize that wars are fought over such arrogance, don't you?"
When instead of acting like some barnyard rooster will it be fashionable to be kind and considerate, respectful, of those with opposing views?
Do you see that the protestors are as guilty of this as much, perhaps even more, as the pro-TMT folks? Every time I have tried to point this out, the reply is always about how its understandable because of the injustices. That, yeah, trying to stop the TMT doesn't really have that much to do with the OHA and DNLR corruption or the keiki's future, but so what because "now is the time" or the Hawaiian culture is a thing of breath and humanity or something similarly fuzzy.
I will repeat myself from a previous post. Not that I expect an answer, but just so you can't say you just get called names and no one engages in discussion...
Kirt, repeated from another thread: "It may be that being a US citizen in 2015 is among the best opportunity situations in the world, in spite of all the US troubles and woes. Again, I don't get who or what you think is holding them back from reaching their [people with certain great grandparents] full potential?"
Cheers,
Kirt
But for now, if my detractors could just show even the slightest amount of intelligence and post an opposing view, a thought-out rebuttal to anything I write here, rather than just calling me names, I'll be amazed.
I suspect you hear the name calling louder than the rest, but it is not all there is. "Get these religious nuts off the mountain..." is not a direct name-calling to you, is it? Or maybe it is if you are one of the protestors on the 'mountain'. Dunno.
My goodness, there is so many better ways to spend a couple billion dollars than building a telescope. In better times, sure built the scopes, look at the stars, answer all those lofty questions. But gee to call all that important, to put it before dealing with real life threatening issues that are on our plate today, is vain. After all the origins of the universe aren't going anywhere we can look at them once the keiki are assured of a healthy and prosperous future.
The sorry truth seems to be that blocking the construction of TMT will do _nothing_ to assure the keiki a healthy and prosperous future, either. A classic red herring.
Bringing up how you believe other countries' and other people's money should be spent is also kinda irrelevant to whether the protestors are generally more or less reasonable than the average, more or less subject to "groupthink", exhibit more or less religious zealotry than others, or "nutty".
I previously posted that "haoles go home" seems a legitimate sentiment and not one that offends me really. Worse would be never to hear that sentiment though it remained in many minds. Calling the protestors religious nuts is in the same league of thought, at least to me.
Or what? Is it just a means to bolster your own ego? Make you feel better? Superior? Stoke your vanity along with Tom's?
I would ask the same of the protestors. Is this an exercise designed to make them feel better? Do they need to feel better because of events before they were born, or for other reasons?
And beside, locally, imo, it is far more important to heal the wounds that were caused by the overthrow and subsequent behavior of the dominant society since, towards the Hawaiian people. If not for us, then for our children and grandchildren. So that they may learn, and perpetuate, a better way to live with all the differences between people. So that they may have a chance to be freed of the arrogance and vanity that is so prevalent in our society today.
From certain POV's the protestors come across as arrogant, abusive, and vain. And yet I appreciate that you feel bad about certain aspects of Hawaiian history to the exclusion of other aspects--and that you are not alone in feeling so (though can't really follow the train of thought that leaves you oppressed or wounded).
But once, again, I can not, for the life of me, understand what you think preventing the TMT has to do with the integrity of future generations. One might cynically view the TMT protests as teaching the keiki BY EXAMPLE about the same arrogance and vanity you say you are trying to eradicate.
If preventing TMT construction somehow healed your wounds and somehow magically ended the whole entitlement by history/heredity thing, I would be somewhat persuaded. But if there is a non-zero chance that you're wounded/oppressed feelings are something of your own making then it could be that 100 TMT constructions could be blocked and nothing about that feeling would change.
Its like when I point out how vain I think TomK is, how he strokes his vanity, and how mean spirited he is to those he disagrees with, it drives him nuts.
And the reverse is just as true. When someone points out how vain and mean the protestors are, with or without "naughty" name-calling words, it seems to drive them (or at least their sympathizers here) to frustration to a degree.
I am always amazed how some may want others to behave in a certain way but go about it by insulting them and still expect compliance.
Do you see that your words could have been written by the other side about the protestors! They want others (from around the world) to behave in a certain way (not build TMT) but go about it by the insulting, arrogant, vain act of blockading the TMT--and go further, saying there will be no compromise whatsoever. They think that their "interpretation is right, whereas the others...that have opposing views are wrong? You do realize that wars are fought over such arrogance, don't you?"
When instead of acting like some barnyard rooster will it be fashionable to be kind and considerate, respectful, of those with opposing views?
Do you see that the protestors are as guilty of this as much, perhaps even more, as the pro-TMT folks? Every time I have tried to point this out, the reply is always about how its understandable because of the injustices. That, yeah, trying to stop the TMT doesn't really have that much to do with the OHA and DNLR corruption or the keiki's future, but so what because "now is the time" or the Hawaiian culture is a thing of breath and humanity or something similarly fuzzy.
I will repeat myself from a previous post. Not that I expect an answer, but just so you can't say you just get called names and no one engages in discussion...
Kirt, repeated from another thread: "It may be that being a US citizen in 2015 is among the best opportunity situations in the world, in spite of all the US troubles and woes. Again, I don't get who or what you think is holding them back from reaching their [people with certain great grandparents] full potential?"
Cheers,
Kirt