DF - But nature isn't largely outside of our understanding, prediction, or even to some extent, control.
Trying to keep it local and as relevant as possible, I'd say the 2018 eruption indicates otherwise? When the Pu'u 'O'o crater floor collapsed, no one was predicting 24 fissures and the complete inundation of Kapoho in the coming months. It would seem that whole Pele-driven event from start (why did Pu'u 'O'o dramatically change after ~35 years?) to finish (what triggered the end? Why did it not go on a month shorter or a year longer?) was "largely outside our understanding, prediction, and control."
DF - Nor is it synonymous with god for very many people.
Agreed - but I think there is a greater overlap, or perhaps even near total synonymy, than many people realize for cultures with polytheistic and animistic beliefs like those in the Hawaiian religion. From my somewhat limited interactions, these beliefs seem to result in a different way of experiencing, conceptualizing, and interacting with the world. Others could probably speak with greater depth and clarity on these matters though.
DF - You want him to prove volcanology is a valid science?
Nope, just want him to prove his assertions including "No matter what, we're dealing with gods and goddesses who seem quite evil, according to what you posted", "If they are caused by a god or goddess to destroy 700 homes, make people evacuate and lose their jobs and livelihoods, I would have to say the god or goddess that caused the lava flow wasn't a particularly nice entity, and yes, I would go as far as calling them evil for all the suffering they caused", and "a god that doesn't cause wars [etc, etc]. But no such god exists", given the burden of proof is on him as he's the one making the claims.
Tom and I both have scientific backgrounds so we may be a little more used to these sorts of discussions where you're tasked with defending your claims by providing evidence and reasoning and having that evidence and reasoning cross-examined, but I hope it is of some value to anyone else who is reading along and/or participating. I can try to answer questions about some of the underlying topics of epistemology, empiricism, the scientific method, etc, if anyone has an interest, and Tom could likely share sources and related info as well should he wish, with MyManao being able to provide a greater depth of experience and understanding of volcanology and Hawaiian history and culture.
Trying to keep it local and as relevant as possible, I'd say the 2018 eruption indicates otherwise? When the Pu'u 'O'o crater floor collapsed, no one was predicting 24 fissures and the complete inundation of Kapoho in the coming months. It would seem that whole Pele-driven event from start (why did Pu'u 'O'o dramatically change after ~35 years?) to finish (what triggered the end? Why did it not go on a month shorter or a year longer?) was "largely outside our understanding, prediction, and control."
DF - Nor is it synonymous with god for very many people.
Agreed - but I think there is a greater overlap, or perhaps even near total synonymy, than many people realize for cultures with polytheistic and animistic beliefs like those in the Hawaiian religion. From my somewhat limited interactions, these beliefs seem to result in a different way of experiencing, conceptualizing, and interacting with the world. Others could probably speak with greater depth and clarity on these matters though.
DF - You want him to prove volcanology is a valid science?
Nope, just want him to prove his assertions including "No matter what, we're dealing with gods and goddesses who seem quite evil, according to what you posted", "If they are caused by a god or goddess to destroy 700 homes, make people evacuate and lose their jobs and livelihoods, I would have to say the god or goddess that caused the lava flow wasn't a particularly nice entity, and yes, I would go as far as calling them evil for all the suffering they caused", and "a god that doesn't cause wars [etc, etc]. But no such god exists", given the burden of proof is on him as he's the one making the claims.
Tom and I both have scientific backgrounds so we may be a little more used to these sorts of discussions where you're tasked with defending your claims by providing evidence and reasoning and having that evidence and reasoning cross-examined, but I hope it is of some value to anyone else who is reading along and/or participating. I can try to answer questions about some of the underlying topics of epistemology, empiricism, the scientific method, etc, if anyone has an interest, and Tom could likely share sources and related info as well should he wish, with MyManao being able to provide a greater depth of experience and understanding of volcanology and Hawaiian history and culture.