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Its a good idea, but the real change is not that huge. People have to pay the permitting fee (not double like they do now) but its still only a few hundred dollars for the average place.
The county already did a huge favor to everyone looking to build when they moved Planning, Building and such into one building for "one-stop shopping". Well, not Department of Health for cesspool/septic, but that's a state function.
I'm glad they are recognizing the problems of unpermitted building and taking action to help people "get legal" but they could do more. How about waiving ALL permit fees (for one year) for people that have pre-existing illegal structures who bring them up to code and make them legal?
John Dirgo, RA, ABR, e-PRO
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Cat,
Yes! I did read it. I went on to the site right away and bookmarked it.
The problem that I see when negotiating while purchasing is that one would still need an architect to certify the structure "and that's where the big money is". So althought the county fees would be low cost, it could be motivating the present owner again to bring things up to speed, code and finalized before you bought (if Possible!). Of course the price would change and the owner could be real surprised at the true cost to get the home into a better condition or meet code, pass inspections and all of that. I would not buy a house that has not been finaled. You can get into too many expenses, that you may not be able to forsee.
I understand that they want to make money so that they can afford to purchase another house, but I don't feel that they have the value in it to justify asking the high price when someone else has already had a home they purchased finaled/completed and really ready for a sale. Too just lucky thing this is not Oahu, where 100 year old houses sell for way too much $$.
One of the real issues that I see happening on many of those homes, older than even 10 years is updating it.
Do you want to hear more?
I might as well say it too, that many pictures that I see of new construction, compared to the mainland is the kitchen is so lacking. I mean in the small spaces are what compromise many of the kitchens, I would want cabinets to the ceiling and Max numbers put in for those Costco runs that need storage and please a dishwasher, a great one, installed. A pantry is a big plus too. I guess I could have my washer/dryer in the garage or outside if that makes a pantry. You see so many with lots of kitchen items out, that if they had the room to store them, I think they would. It would show better too. I hate it when the realtors sneakily take pictures of top area of cabinets without showing where the ceiling is or the lowered tray ceiling when it takes out so much space where a cabinet could go. (Okay, I have 85 cabinets and something like 32 drawers and a double pantry! I know I am spoiled and also wondering where am I going to put this stuff there and what I have to give up! Ouch!
I have a great collection of Hawaii themed dishes, serving dishes etc. for the parties I like to have!
I would prefer no carpet. It is just better for lowering mold growth, since all carpet harbors it and utilize the nice floor coverings of Porcelain tile and Pergo or wood/bamboo. Then you have the option to have a room rug and rugs to land on when you get out of bed etc. It is just much healthier for anyone. Carpets give off so many bad gasses for years, it is just how they are made. I am much more for less air pollution in a home. I have noticed that the houses that have other than carpet as the main flooring seem to go faster than the others. Carpet is terrible waste of space in the landfills also.
Skip the Corian and real expensive counter tops; tile and some other choices are fine with me. It seems like a balance for a builder to put in a certain amount of money into the homes and it is a trade off on some things.
Anyway, we most likely will have a house built for us, so I can be choose how and what I want.
I would like to see plans that use less square footage for halls, or entrance ways that could be used for a larger kitchen or family room, or bedroom.
I just might have a hard time adjusting to a small home again, since my house is 3000 sf plus garage, Lanai's etc. They come cheap down here in Tx. That is all I can say about it!
Cat,
Could you tell me what is your take on these items I have listed being in the industry, I forget how long or if you mentioned it before? Anyone else who might have some ideas on what changes they might like to see?
Or the article that Cat posted?
Aloha,
Lucy
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Lucy
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It used to be that folks would build their house and then get a permit and there wouldn't be any fine or problem, but this was about three decades ago. Even at that time, though, if you built first you had to pay double the permit fee, but that was the only fine or punishment. Doubling a couple hundred dollar permit fee is nothing in the whole scheme of building a house. Now, if you do an "as-built" permit you have to have an architect (or engineer) inspect it and stamp the plans AND you have to have the electrician and plumber sign the building permit application. For a house built several decades ago, these folks may not be around anymore. You also have to bring the structure up to current code.
After Hurricane Ewa and Iniki, they got a lot more building requirements. If the house is older, it won't have any of the Simpson fittings on it, it won't have the sheer wall corners underneath, it may not have the roof sheathing. Used to be you could put trusses at four feet on center with purlins at two feet and then just tin on top and be finished with your roof. Nice, cheap and it kept the rain off even if it was a bit loud in the rain. To make a house built in this fashion to current code, it might need a whole new roof and working on an existing house is a lot harder than new construction.
Now, if your house is built prior to 1915 and you have documentation of it prior to 1930 (I think it was) you don't need a building permit at all! Ha!
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Kurt Wilson
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Okay let me see if I can answer the questions...
John is right in that all the amnesty does is eliminate the doubling of the permit fee. I too would like to see all COH fees eliminated for a year if you get legal.
I am trying to get in to meet with Nani @ Bldg to hear her take on it. As for architect/drafting fees - right now what I am seeing is $.65-$1/sf to draw up as builts (refering both to permits never finaled or unpermitted structures). As for buying an unpermitted house, it depends on yor comfort level. My SO knows his stuff, and I would purchase an unpermitted house because we would have a good idea and have the network to fix what it needs because we both work with those issues every day. My mom buy one??? No WAY! With houses that were built before the current code was in affect, Nani told me that if you add 25% or more SF then you have to start bringing the rest of the house up to code. When you hit 50%, it means adding the current shear walls etc. It's one of those toss up things, I would rather buy a house built prior to 2004 because much of the lumber was CCA - the hibor/durabor is about worthless (again IMHO).
In regards to resale value, I would like to also ask John to respond since he is working with the sales directly.
As for the some of the items Lucy mentioned, some of those are personal taste items - although I am always for more/many on cabinents and closets. Some people really like the tray ceilings and the lighting that goes with it typically.
As for carpeting, IMHO that is also personal taste I think. Living in Waimea - area rugs didnt begin to soak up the cold. of course, when i first moved here 20 years ago, I thought Waimea was warm in the winter... now it is brrrrrrr cold in even in summer! Being in Kapoho, carpet is inapprorpiate IMHO.
As for other items, some of them are more what is currently "in" - cupolas have been making a big splash for a couple of years now. As for Corian, I know one builder who just swears by the extra cost, and some like granite, or in a kit house maybe formica. Also if you watch HGTV at all, the "mid-century moderne" is popular - for non decorators that refers to the 50's & 60's look.
And no matter what you put in a spec house, the people who move in will probably redecorate! It's human nature.
-Cat
Edited by - kapohocat on 07/21/2006 14:41:37
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An unpermitted/unfinaled home gets slammed in terms of resale value. They sell for at least 25-30% less than a comparable legal home would -- because they tend to be cash sales because of the problems with financing unpermitted places. You basically can't get a loan unless you do the "renovation loan" thing and the cost to bring them to code and legal can be considerable.
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I hope this isn't the first step in the county trying to get rid of unpermitted properties as in; orders to tear them down.
I read somewhere that the higher costs of temporary electric is sooo lucrative for HELCO that, thats the reason they do not crack down on unpermitted properties.I hope this is not one of those things that will make it harder on poor folks that can not afford to bring there properties up to code.
Edited by - punamom on 07/22/2006 15:02:06
Edited by - punamom on 07/23/2006 03:17:10
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When we first built our house 15 years ago (8ft post and pier)...we had the whole house built to code and finaled. Then 10 years later we had an addition built on....added two more bedrooms and tv room downstairs and changed post and pier to concrete slab....And that was also built to code and finaled. But then just before we moved down here.... we had one more additional room downstairs added ,and not permitted, because we were in a hurry and permits were taking 4 to 6 months and we couldn't wait.
So from what I gathered in this thread...I will not be able to sell my house to anyone that uses financing because of the one room that was built unpermited?
What would the "current" fines be to get the county to come in and do a final after the fact....vs wait until the proposed law change ?
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Aloha, Macuu. My understanding is that a buyer would be able to get financing, but the lender would technically be expected to base the loan on an appraised value WITHOUT the unpermitted portion. Given the way lenders have been known to stretch things, especially in a slowing market, having one room unpermitted in a house that size might not be a significant issue.
I believe that "after the fact" permits, (without the proposed changes) in the regs are double the normal cost.
Perhaps one of the real estate pros on the forum can let us know if my assumptions are correct.
Cheers,
Jerry
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Macuu -
Typically (john keep me out of trouble here and jump in if I am off base) the loan will be based on the permitted section and the square footage for the unpermitted will not be included in the valuation..
The county will do a permit application with "as built" drawings (see reply a few replys up). At the moment, the permit fee is double for as builts. That said the cost for a permit is approx $20/100 sf again approximately ( see http://www.hawaii-county.com/permits/how...ermit.html )
-Cat
Catherine Dumond
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You are right. The unpermitted space is just "ignored" by the appraisers (which is why financing a fully unpermitted place is so hard -- they have to ignore it all).
John Dirgo, RA, ABR, e-PRO
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