Solar systems and warranty’s

[A friend indeed]

Re:  Solar System….and system installers…

I recently posted about an inspection I had performed of my system, which I do annually paying a modest fee for.

My most recent inspection revealed some issues with my batteries, which are Northstar, 8 of them.  They came from a licensed authorized dealer here on the Big Island, who installed my entire system.  My most recent inspection revealed that three of the batteries are failing at four and a half years.  They came from the installer who said, in writing they have a five year warranty.  

The inspection was done by a former employee of the original contractor.  When I engaged him to inspect the system, it was conditioned on getting a written report.  He has failed to provide me with such, after three written reminders to do so.

I sent the original installer/contractor an inquiry about the failing batteries.  He has not responded in anyway.  I know he is still in business.

I fell like blasting my dissatisfaction on Facebook but that really is not my thing.

I am going to send a demand letter by certified mail.

As a side note, two years after installation, I was having insufficient power.  I contacted the original contractor who said I needed two additional PV panels, which I had them install  within six months I still had insufficient power.  They came out and did whatever and corrected the problem.  For three years everything worked perfectly after that.

The former employee, who now has his own business and did the most recent inspection, informed me the first problem was the result of failing to connect the two new panel to the system!

So now I’m wondering if that failure of not having them connected for some six months somehow shortened the life of three of 8 batteries.  

I’m not a happy camper and being 75 on a limited income, the cost of fixing this will force me to sell the roof over my head.

[Durian Fiend]

Re:  Solar System….and system installers…

I recently posted about an inspection I had performed of my system, which I do annually paying a modest fee for.

My most recent inspection revealed some issues with my batteries, which are Northstar, 8 of them.  They came from a licensed authorized dealer here on the Big Island, who installed my entire system.  My most recent inspection revealed that three of the batteries are failing at four and a half years.  They came from the installer who said, in writing they have a five year warranty.  

The inspection was done by a former employee of the original contractor.  When I engaged him to inspect the system, it was conditioned on getting a written report.  He has failed to provide me with such, after three written reminders to do so.

I sent the original installer/contractor an inquiry about the failing batteries.  He has not responded in anyway.  I know he is still in business.

I fell like blasting my dissatisfaction on Facebook but that really is not my thing.

I am going to send a demand letter by certified mail.

As a side note, two years after installation, I was having insufficient power.  I contacted the original contractor who said I needed two additional PV panels, which I had them install  within six months I still had insufficient power.  They came out and did whatever and corrected the problem.  For three years everything worked perfectly after that.

The former employee, who now has his own business and did the most recent inspection, informed me the first problem was the result of failing to connect the two new panel to the system!

So now I’m wondering if that failure of not having them connected for some six months somehow shortened the life of three of 8 batteries.  

I’m not a happy camper and being 75 on a limited income, the cost of fixing this will force me to sell the roof over my head.

I believe it's entirely possible, even though you had three subsequent years of good service.  By insufficient power, do you mean low voltage cutoffs or something else?  Since you haven't mentioned a name for the installer, if it is NOT Doug (Solar Man), I'd suggest contacting him for an inspection and discussion of your system's issues.

Since lead acid batteries only have a life span of 5-10 years, falling short of 5 years by a few months is certainly unfortunate but shouldn't exactly constitute an unforeseen budgetary expense.  
It may be advisable to spring for the longer lasting lithium ion batteries as replacements, if you can swing the higher cost.

[randomq]

What often happens is people undercharge the lead acid batteries, and they slowly sulphate and lose capacity. A good hard charge / equalization can bring the batteries back, but you really should set the highest recommended voltage for charging them each day, and verify they get to that voltage at the terminals (not just the charge controller, as there can be loss in the cables). If you were under paneled for a while, this can also lead to those batteries never getting to their ideal voltage and state of charge, which will cause them to exhibit lower capacity.

Look up the rated specs for your batteries (charge rate and max voltage) and do an equalization charge on them after they are fairly low. A couple equalization cycles like that should get them as good as they are going to get. If you intend to keep them longer you can also look into desulfating them regularly. They sell chargers and devices to do so, but I switched over to Lithium and haven't needed to look into that for a while.

I would also recommend switching to lithium when you replace them, with the appropriate charge controller / settings. A lot less headaches.

[terracore]

I didn't know we were discussing lead acid batteries. With a 5 year warranty I just assumed they were LiFePO4 because most lead acid batteries don't come with such long warranties specifically because if they are kept at a low state of charge (like if 2 panels aren't connected) it drastically shortens their lifespan.

I looked up Northstar and they were specifically known for making AGM lead acid batteries. 3-6 years would be considered a good run for them with daily cycling.

Since we also don't know what the warranty says, with lead acid I'm going to guess that it's a pro-rated warranty, meaning that if they are 4.5 years into a 5 year warranty that means 6 months pro-rated out of a 60 month warranty equals a refund or credit of 10% the original price.

If that's the case, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, potentially getting 10% back probably isn't worth the effort, especially if "potentially" is the operative word. Did the disconnected panels shorten the life of the batteries? Maybe probably. Can it be proven? Probably not. But at 4.5 years of daily cycling those batteries were probably at the end of their life regardless of the warranty.

Will they give the 10% back? They might do it as a customer service gesture, the scrap value of the lead in the batteries might be worth that much, so for them it could be a wash. If it's in the form of credit, you have to decide if you want to do business with them in the future.

Like others have said, it's recommended to only go with LiFePO4 moving forward. The price on them have dropped to the point where they are the only type of battery that makes sense to buy for a solar system. They look like they have a higher upfront cost, but you'll get twice the useable power out of them compared to similarly rated lead acid batteries and they will last 10-15 years instead of 3-6. They can also charge faster than AGM so you can potentially collect more power with fewer panels because they won't resist charging as there is no absorption phase. I was originally resistant to buy into the higher up-front cost of LiFePO4 until I did exhaustive research and realized I was a fool to wait as long as I did, and the prices are almost 50% lower now than they were then. Just for your awareness, your charge controllers will probably have to be reconfigured or reprogrammed to use the different chemistry.

[A friend indeed]

I didn't know we were discussing lead acid batteries.  With a 5 year warranty I just assumed they were LiFePO4 because most lead acid batteries don't come with such long warranties specifically because if they are kept at a low state of charge (like if 2 panels aren't connected) it drastically shortens their lifespan.

I looked up Northstar and they were specifically known for making AGM lead acid batteries.  3-6 years would be considered a good run for them with daily cycling. 

Since we also don't know what the warranty says, with lead acid I'm going to guess that it's a pro-rated warranty, meaning that if they are 4.5 years into a 5 year warranty that means 6 months pro-rated out of a 60 month warranty equals a refund or credit of 10% the original price. 

If that's the case, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, potentially getting 10% back probably isn't worth the effort, especially if "potentially" is the operative word.  Did the disconnected panels shorten the life of the batteries?  Maybe probably.  Can it be proven?  Probably not. But at 4.5 years of daily cycling those batteries were probably at the end of their life regardless of the warranty.

Will they give the 10% back?  They might do it as a customer service gesture, the scrap value of the lead in the batteries might be worth that much, so for them it could be a wash.  If it's in the form of credit, you have to decide if you want to do business with them in the future.

Like others have said, it's recommended to only go with LiFePO4 moving forward. The price on them have dropped to the point where they are the only type of battery that makes sense to buy for a solar system.  They look like they have a higher upfront cost, but you'll get twice the useable power out of them compared to similarly rated lead acid batteries and they will last 10-15 years instead of 3-6. They can also charge faster than AGM so you can potentially collect more power with fewer panels because they won't resist charging as there is no absorption phase. I was originally resistant to buy into the higher up-front cost of LiFePO4 until I did exhaustive research and realized I was a fool to wait as long as I did, and the prices are almost 50% lower now than they were then.  Just for your awareness, your charge controllers will probably have to be reconfigured or reprogrammed to use the different chemistry.

[Durian Fiend]

... Just for your awareness, your charge controllers will probably have to be reconfigured or reprogrammed to use the different chemistry.

Yes, for sure the Outback charge controller would need to have its parameters reconfigured.   

 OP has been a bit shy about providing info regarding his batteries.  I had asked in a previous thread about their amp hour rating.  If provided with the model name of the batteries perhaps we could be of more help.  Google AI casts some doubt on the 5 year warranty claim, for what that's worth.

[A friend indeed]

Thanks for the kind reply!  I just know nothing about the systems.  I’m trying to add some iPhone photos of the batteries, but it keeps coming back…too large!  

Anyway the label  says NSB190Ft Blue+ Battery. Thin plate lead carbon   Capacity 12v 183 ah, c/10 to 1.80PC @77 degrees F

They are dated 4/15/20.  Installed 10/2020

---

... Just for your awareness, your charge controllers will probably have to be reconfigured or reprogrammed to use the different chemistry.

Yes, for sure the Outback charge controller would need to have its parameters reconfigured.   

 OP has been a bit shy about providing info regarding his batteries.  I had asked in a previous thread about their amp hour rating.  If provided with the model name of the batteries perhaps we could be of more help.  Google AI casts some doubt on the 5 year warranty claim, for what that's worth.

[Durian Fiend]

Thanks for the kind reply!  I just know nothing about the systems.  I’m trying to add some iPhone photos of the batteries, but it keeps coming back…too large!  

Anyway the label  says NSB190Ft Blue+ Battery. Thin plate lead carbon   Capacity 12v 183 ah, c/10 to 1.80PC @77 degrees F

They are dated 4/15/20.  Installed 10/2020

---

... Just for your awareness, your charge controllers will probably have to be reconfigured or reprogrammed to use the different chemistry.

Yes, for sure the Outback charge controller would need to have its parameters reconfigured.   

 OP has been a bit shy about providing info regarding his batteries.  I had asked in a previous thread about their amp hour rating.  If provided with the model name of the batteries perhaps we could be of more help.  Google AI casts some doubt on the 5 year warranty claim, for what that's worth.

OK, thanks.  Do the batteries really weigh 136 lbs each? I wouldn't doubt it.  That alone is a great reason to ditch them when the times comes for the much lighter lithium iron phosphate batteries.  With 183 Amp hours times five (900 Amp hours) I believe you have enough storage capacity with the remaining batteries for your current needs.  You can take the bad batteries to Interstate in Hilo for recycling.  

According to Google AI, the maximum length of warranty is 4 years for Northstar batteries. It actually looks like 3 years for the blues if they're hooked up to an Outback charge controller like yours.

"The NorthStar NSB190FT Blue+ battery comes with a 2 to 4-year limited warranty depending on the installation and monitoring setup. If installed with OutBack inverters, a FLEXnet DC battery monitor, and monitored with OPTICS RE, it has a 3-year warranty. If not monitored, or if installed with other equipment, the warranty is 1 year, according to Outback power. The warranty period begins on the date indicated by the manufacturer's date code on the battery. "

[terracore]

"Do the batteries really weigh 136 lbs each?"

That adds up. I had a couple of the 12v 150AH golf cart batteries they used to sell at costco and they were 90 pounds each (and no handles or anything to grab on them). Well, technically I still "have them" but they no longer do anything useful. I certainly don't miss doing the maintenance on those flooded batteries. I think they are less common for solar now but people are still buying AGM even though they cost a lot more in the long run. I'm wondering if the difficulty (expense) shipping LiFePO4 here is making the installers reluctant to recommend them.