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+--- Thread: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo (/showthread.php?tid=17312)
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RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - kalakoa - 07-19-2016
TMT was the catalyst for many Hawaiians to rise up and state, "Enough is enough", on all levels.
If all given Lands belong to a certain People, then any "Foreigners" who attempt to live there are second-class citizens at best, refugees at worst.
Should all the haoles then move back to the countries from which they came?
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - opihikao - 07-19-2016
quote:Respectfully, I disagree (first part). Some "Foreigners" served the King(s) and Queen, and were gifted land for their work; as Hawaiian nationals.
Originally posted by kalakoa
TMT was the catalyst for many Hawaiians to rise up and state, "Enough is enough", on all levels.
If all given Lands belong to a certain People, then any "Foreigners" who attempt to live there are second-class citizens at best, refugees at worst.
Should all the haoles then move back to the countries from which they came?
As to the question, no, because "haoles" were part of the Kingdom, and were loyal to the Hawaiian monarchy and people.
JMO.
ETA: remove typo at bottom
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - kalakoa - 07-19-2016
"haoles" were part of the Kingdom, and were loyal to the Hawaiian monarchy and people
Then the problem is not ethicity or origin, but loyalty, and the machinery of the State has demonstrated where its loyalties lie.
I often think (and hope) that if these islands were given back, our new Hawaiian State would simply interview any who wish to remain, and grant citizenship based on loyalty and reverence for the land, rather than money or skin color.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-19-2016
second-class citizens at best, refugees at worst...
Should all the haoles then move back...
Oh good. Another installment of the Let's Rearrange Reality Game.
I move that lands belonging to descendants of Hawaiian tribal chiefs have ownership and oversight of their aina reinstated.
I further move that only people with more than 2% Neanderthal DNA are allowed back into Europe.
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - knieft - 07-19-2016
quote:
Originally posted by opihikao
the precedent was set by the State, not the protestors, by usurping their own laws. Again, the Supreme Court agreed with the protestors in their ruling.
I'm curious, opihikao...
Do you think that the TMT would be being constructed as we speak if it wasn't for the protestors?
You seem to very much want the protestors to NOT have responsibility...laying it on the state, etc. I understand the argument, intellectually, but I don't get it emotionally...?
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - kalakoa - 07-19-2016
Another installment of the Let's Rearrange Reality Game.
I would suggest a better play, but this is the game we have.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Justin - 07-19-2016
quote:
Originally posted by knieft
quote:
Originally posted by opihikao
the precedent was set by the State, not the protestors, by usurping their own laws. Again, the Supreme Court agreed with the protestors in their ruling.
I'm curious, opihikao...
Do you think that the TMT would be being constructed as we speak if it wasn't for the protestors?
You seem to very much want the protestors to NOT have responsibility...laying it on the state, etc. I understand the argument, intellectually, but I don't get it emotionally...?
Cheers,
Kirt
Kirt, I don't think there's any real question there. The ceremony to begin construction had been conducted, and equipment was in place. And if the building had actually started, it'd have certainly become completed.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - kalakoa - 07-19-2016
The ceremony to begin construction had been conducted
This suggests that TMT construction was "blessed" by some calling themselves "Hawaiian".
Meanwhile, other "Hawaiian" groups are protesting this same construction.
It's almost as if ethnicity isn't quite the issue here.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - opihikao - 07-19-2016
quote:Aloha, Kirt. Not sure. The legal wrangling would have continued, with or without the physical presence of the protestors on Mauna Kea. I believe the Supreme Court would have still ruled in the same manner, and pulled the permit.
Originally posted by knieft
I'm curious, opihikao...
Do you think that the TMT would be being constructed as we speak if it wasn't for the protestors?
You seem to very much want the protestors to NOT have responsibility...laying it on the state, etc. I understand the argument, intellectually, but I don't get it emotionally...?
Cheers,
Kirt
As to the protestors "NOT having responsibility", I don't quite get your point (intellectually vs. emotionally). They are responsible for standing up for what they believed was a flawed process. Turns out, the protestors had legal grounds, as ruled by the Supreme Court.
Yes, I completely blame the State for TMT's status. The protestors are responsible for causing one hell of a disturbance, no question. Standing up for what is right (lawfully, and emotionally) en mass, is part of the fiber of this great country (USofA).
As the old adage goes, desperate times call for desperate measures.
JMO.
ETA: Justin is correct, however, the ceremony was not completed, nor was the blessing. The Kahu was not able to provide the blessing he was paid to do, and spent more time talking to the protestors trying to convince them to let him continue. He did not get even half way through what is required of a Kahu. Not even close. JMO.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-19-2016
The Kahu was not able to provide the blessing he was paid to do...
opihikao,
Are there any consequences or procedures taken against people who interrupt a blessing? Other than the disruptors looked upon as rude or bad mannered?
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky