+- Punaweb Forum (http://punaweb.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Punaweb Forums (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Punatalk (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo (/showthread.php?tid=17312)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - punaticbychoice - 03-04-2017
ohiagrrl:
TMT related ohiagrrl?
As you say what cultural practices at 13,796 feet?
The decline was mostly due to a lack of disease resistance among native Hawaiians.
But that history is another thread and subject.
Conclusion is that opposition to TMT has little or nothing to do with TMT.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - randomq - 03-04-2017
So historically it's ok to have mining for commerce on the sacred Mauna? But not science for all humanity?
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 03-04-2017
I am curious, how do you come to your conclusions?
I searched Google, and one of the few websites with info on Mauna Kea and the Hawaiian presence there is from the National Park Service:
https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/Asian_American_and_Pacific_Islander_Heritage/Mauna-Kea-Adze-Quarry.htm
If you have other links I'd be glad to read them. But statements like "it's very easy to imagine a lot of commerce associated with the area" isn't really hard evidence is it? Any more than, "assuming the Ali'i conducted pilgrimage by foot ... until the arrival of the horse...."
Any factual insight you have to offer?
If the TMT is not to be built because of Hawaiian religious activities on Mauna Kea, shouldn't someone be able to provide basic details of that presence and not just conjecture and wishful thinking? There's an oral tradition that goes back well before written history.
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 03-04-2017
Have you ever visited the quarry? It's massive, and by the piles of chipped stone there it's very easy to imagine a lot of commerce associated with the area.
Would you know how the workers were chosen for the mining operation? Did they volunteer? Were they employed for wages by the Ali'i? Or perhaps receive shares in the enterprise?
Or were they working under other circumstances? It's been suggested the work only occurred in the summer months, and the miners lived in the quarry the entire time due to the arduous journey up and down the mountain. They would have been away from their families, and the warmth of their homes near and along the coast for 3 or 4 months at a stretch. It may have been a significant hardship, don't you think? I find it difficult to imagine the common worker feeling a sense of glory and pride to pound out rocks all day for months on end, do you?
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - ohiagrrl - 03-04-2017
PBC, others are trying to identify a timeline and whether religious practices were ever held on the summit. Gallileo posted one account disputing it from one hunter who was on Mauna Kea during the 60's. I was pointing out that due to lack of numbers and a cultural "malaise" that these practices may have fallen off for a period. I'm on the fence about TMT but see a total lack of sensitivity given to indigenous culture. I applaud the fight not to be marginalized.
Glinda, nice one. I lived near those horses and donkeys for a time. Sassy buggahs!
HOTPE you kind of answer your own question bringing up oral tradition. There's the disconnect. Go to any Hula Halau and talk story with any of the Kumu's for history lesson. So gracious. Oral tradition values face to face exchange. The expectation of conformity routine is part of the whole problem. In legal issues and mock court rooms alike, this does present challenges.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 03-04-2017
HOTPE you kind of answer your own question bringing up oral tradition.
I don't think I did. I don't know of any oral tradition concerning practices on Mauna Kea. Ask a kumu is not an answer. If you have talked story about cultural practices on Mauna Kea with a kumu or hula dancer, please, what exactly did they say?
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - ohiagrrl - 03-04-2017
Wellllll....last time I spoke to anyone was in November with Generra of the Honoka'a halau and after having a super fun impromptu dance jam in her store she told me she was going to the Volcano to do a hula ritual with her halau. I'm not sure it was advertised except by word of mouth and that is the magic of face to face interaction.
It is all very current and vital. Things to do. Aloha!
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 03-04-2017
Considering that there was no written language and all of history was passed down orally what do you suggest HOTPE?
Do you know how many kumu there are in the islands? Each with a different tradition, dances, and chants?
I suggest that anyone who thinks the information can be obtained through a kumu, that they personally begin the search, find a knowledgable kumu if they can, and bring the answers back to us. It's your suggestion, not mine.
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Kapoho Joe - 03-04-2017
I find it very interesting that there was little to no involvement between the natives and mauna kea until the TMT came along. Then all of a sudden, it's sacred ground that must be defended to the last pebble. Give me a break. Reminds me of little kids who are not interested in a toy until their sibling or cousin starts playing with it!
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 03-04-2017
Ohiagrrl - one quick question:
"No I'm saying the TMT project was always a foregone conclusion"
Would you share with everyone else what this "foregone conclusion" is? I'm not aware of one.