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+--- Thread: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo (/showthread.php?tid=17312)
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RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - knieft - 03-07-2017
Do you think that if I put together and place the item below up on the TMT site I would get in trouble of some sort?
https://www.amazon.com/Thirty-Meter-Telescope-scale-puzzle/dp/B01C5UQX62/
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 03-07-2017
place the item... up on the TMT site
Don't forget the pictures!
Then, after posting them somewhere you're guaranteed two days of conspiracy theories involving nighttime swarms of helicopters (Yeah, yeah, I heard them too!) and stealth military transports.
(Good find knieft)
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - ohiagrrl - 03-08-2017
The Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) regarding TMT:
http://dlnr.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/doc-r-3-eis-volume-1.pdf
TomK you seem confused about geography. Many questions are answered in this wonderfully written and informative (culturally/ historically/ geographical, etc...) EIS that HOTPE was kind enough to direct us to. TMT will be located at 13,150 elevation (or roughly 600 feet below the summit) on the NW plateau of Mauna Kea (visible from Waimea/ Honokaa), the 13N site in "Area E", part of the 525 acre Astronomy Precinct but a 1/2 mile NW of the existing observatories. A mid level facility is being planned on 19.5 acres of located in the "Hale Pohaku" region of the mountain (9,200ft) which translates as the "House/Home of the Sacred Stones". The Summit access road comes right off of Hwy 200. The EIS acknowledges that this project will effect 9? (hard to read crossed out) acres of the mountain top including creation of roadways and staging areas and supportive Helco infrastructure.
The EIS was prepared by the University which had previously been censured for bad land management, it's land management practices are known to have improved considerably at Mauna Kea's summit,and the Cultural Impact Analysis within the EIS seems thorough.
The EIS is not an Archaelogical Inventory Survey, however, which is what is needed to determine whether ancestral burial grounds actually exist elsewhere beyond known sites. This is the one put out by TMT, including an excellent topographical map of the area in question:
http://www.tmt.org/sites/default/files/documents/application/pdf/final%20tmt%20amp.pdf
"It should be noted that, while burials are found on the rims of cinder cones in the Mauna
Kea Science Reserve and the adjacent Mauna Kea Ice Age Natural Area Reserve
(NAR), they are also found well away from cinder cones in lower elevations in both the
Mauna Kea Science Reserve and in the NAR."
This 2016 Archeological Survey from Richard Nees at Pacific Consulting lists many cultural and historical sites at close proximity to proposed construction sites.
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/mk/files/2016/10/WDT-Nees-R.pdf
and a follow up interview with Mr Nees
http://bigislandnow.com/2016/12/06/tmt-hearing-uh-calls-archeologist-to-the-stand/
"In his written, direct testimony, Nees also testified that there are hundreds of shrines inside and outside of the Adz Quarry on Mauna Kea, numerous burials and hundreds of shrines in the summit area."
His authority is then called into question by TMT council.
Laws state that the Hawaiian people must have a representative at each Archeological Survey.
http://files.hawaii.gov/dlnr/shpd/rules/300.pdf
I so far have not been able to locate one statute that requires archeologists to do more than a surface survey of the land in question for cultural artifacts and bones. Unless there is some pre-existing evidence in which case a 50cm cube/sample might be examined or possible a trench dug. Once the AIS is submitted no further testing or oversight by Hawaiian community member seems required by law unless bones are reported during a dig.
Things just aren't as black and white as some are portraying this situation to be. Like I said, I am not an opponent of TMT but calling Hawaiians liars and extremists is not the right tact. When "Aunty" informed a young woman that her family wouldn't be happy she was just stating the obvious, that in Hawaii if you anger one, you may anger many. My Dad recently told my guy that the secret to a good relationship lies in 5 little words.
"You are so right honey."
If TMT builds here it will be an arranged marriage. From everything I read they plan on committing to the community in a multiplicity of ways. Doesn't sound bad at all but they are getting involved with a partner that comes with baggage caused by tricky former partners.
The other things everyone here knows is that progress in any regard to anything is often SLOOOOWwwww.....
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Kapoho Joe - 03-08-2017
I hope they don't build it. Hawaii doesn't deserve it.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 03-08-2017
ohiagrrl wrote:
"TomK you seem confused about geography. Many questions are answered in this wonderfully written and informative (culturally/ historically/ geographical, etc...) EIS that HOTPE was kind enough to direct us to. TMT will be located at 13,150 elevation (or roughly 600 feet below the summit) on the NW plateau of Mauna Kea (visible from Waimea/ Honokaa), the 13N site in "Area E", part of the 525 acre Astronomy Precinct but a 1/2 mile NW of the existing observatories.[...]"
What comment of mine are you referring to? I know precisely where the proposed TMT site is, I must have pointed it out to hundreds of people over the years while on the mountain.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - galileo - 03-08-2017
quote:
Originally posted by galileo
New post - The TMT Contested Case Winds Down
http://darkerview.com/wordpress/?p=21222#more-21222
He continues with a very eloquent and insightful description:
[quote]
It is a subculture within the community, a subculture that has become so steeped in a mythical past, a re-created Hawaiian religion that blends the old traditional ways, a good helping of modern new age mysticism, and a notable element of nationalism. It is this distorted idealism that leads the opposition to astronomy upon Mauna Kea.
Richard Ha corroborates this "re-creation" in an interesting post on his blog.
http://www.hamakuasprings.com/2016/02/is-mauna-kea-really-sacred/
"My Pop helped to bulldoze the road to the summit of Mauna Kea back in about 1964, and when I think back to that time, none of my Hawaiian relatives at Maku‘u ever said one word against it. No one ever even hinted it was against religious and cultural practices. I don’t remember our relatives ever telling us that the mountain was forbidden territory."
"There was no mention of anyone up on the mountain protesting when Pop was building the road, because there wasn’t anybody protesting. There was never any feeling he was doing anything against the culture. There was no discussion about it, period."
When Deborah Ward was cross-examined, she was asked why there were no religious objections when the first telescopes were built, and she gave an answer that seemed fishy to me. She basically said at that point in time, religious issues were kept private.
There's a link to a video of Peter Apo discussing his views on Maunakea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErWIxAZFAA
2:42
"The TMT to me represents probably the greatest opportunity - cultural opportunity, religious opportunity that we will ever have to do the one thing that is at the center of every cultural movement - that is search for the ancestors."
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - galileo - 03-08-2017
quote:Why should there be a statute? Have you seen any catacombs on any Hawaiian island?
Originally posted by ohiagrrl
I so far have not been able to locate one statute that requires archeologists to do more than a surface survey of the land in question for cultural artifacts and bones. Unless there is some pre-existing evidence in which case a 50cm cube/sample might be examined or possible a trench dug. Once the AIS is submitted no further testing or oversight by Hawaiian community member seems required by law unless bones are reported during a dig.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - ohiagrrl - 03-10-2017
quote:
Originally posted by TomK
Even if the TMT is built on Mauna Kea, which is unlikely as I've already stated, there are no plans to widen the Saddle Road, so have no idea where you came up with that.
TK if there was confusion on my part regarding this statement it may just be a language barrier?
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - ohiagrrl - 03-10-2017
Galileo,
Regarding Mr Ha's opinion, I would argue that in 1964, even if the Traditional Hawaiian Movement had gotten up as many numbers as it has today, there was no Internet, no Facebook, no email, etc...ie: it is not likely the majority of Traditional Hawaiians would have known about the construction or even been as connected to eachother, much less the outside world until after the structures were near completion. I some how doubt the previous observatories went door to door to inform natives.
The fact that this movement didn't happen when the population numbers were subdued and no one had easy access to community connection proves nothing. If Traditional Hawaiians on the Island of Hawaii are a subculture then so are the Papists in Rome, that doesn't stop them from governing Catholic religious law to the masses.
Kuiper's first telescope was built on a cinder cone, a known burial site, no catacombs but cinder cones. The next telescope built was funded through an open competition by NASA which decided cinder cones and the peak were the best locations despite previous knowledge that these were sacred locations. The next two were funded by the US Air force followed by a consortium of a dozen nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauna_Kea_Observatories
Activism against developing the uplands began 25 years ago, a whole generation of increased population.
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/4/8542521/thirty-meter-telescope
RE: Galileo's post "There's a link to a video of Peter Apo discussing his views on Maunakea."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErWIxAZFAA
2:42
"The TMT to me represents probably the greatest opportunity - cultural opportunity, religious opportunity that we will ever have to do the one thing that is at the center of every cultural movement - that is search for the ancestors."
While this might be true and I would certainly hope it would be....TMT is suffering the disillusionment of a culture based on the actions of it's predecessors as above discussed. It is unfortunate for everyone that more sensitivity wasn't previously applied to this situation. Spreading negative propaganda about local traditionalists is not going to help matters. Change your rhetoric. You are your own worst PR problem. Winning in court is not the same as having to live amongst an outraged community. It's not as small as you seem to believe or as your advertised polls seem to show.
If you are literally going to "take the higher ground" then you might try to do that figuratively as well.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 03-10-2017
TK if there was confusion ... it may just be a language barrier?
Yes, try and remember to use Google Translate first. The setting I believe you're looking for is American English to English English. It's of course a little extra labour, but in the long run worth a lorry full of kippers for the confusion it may avoid.
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.