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+--- Thread: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo (/showthread.php?tid=17312)
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RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - kalakoa - 10-02-2017
Why make it harder for some of the Hawaiian people today to continue to live and learn in their traditional ways?
A road to the MK summit makes it easier to practice "traditional ways", albeit by driving one of those modern horseless carriages.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 10-02-2017
gypsy,
A majority of Native Hawaiians are in favor of the telescopes. They did not get kicked in the pants. Astronomy on Mauna Kea is what the majority wanted. Don't pretend that's not the case.
The minority of Native Hawaiians who don't support the TMT do receive support for other issues, but they're not going to get everything they want, who does? In this case they don't bring strong arguments to the hearings when often their testimony consists largely of false accusations toward the astronomy community, inventive claims of a distant cultural past, and delay tactics designed not to clarify the situation but simply to wait it out. Waiting for a deadline to pass as a key tactic doesn't display much faith in their own arguments and allegations. They also depend on using an entirely different set of rules for themselves than for the astronomy community. That was my point in a previous post where you stated every rule must be followed, to the letter. Except when you don't want to, like Red Road for example.
People said Tahitians never could have sailed to Hawaii. The Hokulele voyaging canoe proved them wrong. Why don't a group of "The Protectors" prove they can walk from the coast to the summit of Mauna Kea, eating only the food they carry and collect along the way, as well as any implements they would need to perform religious practices once they arrive, and camp for an extended period of time near the peak. A live blog of this journey would help us understand how Hawaiians might have undertaken this pilgrimage in the past, and how often. Can it be done? Certainly. Was it a common occurrence by the average Hawaiian?
Edited to add:
If ancient Hawaiians could generally be considered subsistence farmers, how many of them would have had the opportunity to leave their responsibilities for tending the taro, feeding the pigs, performing regular maintenance on their houses and fences, and providing for a wife and children even once in a lifetime? Perhaps in an extremely large family a brother or sons may have performed those duties for a religious pilgrim, but if not, he might have returned to a leaking or collapsed home, pigs run off or stolen, and no taro or poi until the next crop. How many could risk it?
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - punaticbychoice - 10-02-2017
HOTPE: @ 09:36:24-
Sometimes the plainest questions are the best.
Good observation.
An interjection of a little common sense.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - leilanidude - 10-02-2017
The common man in ancient Hawaii (even 150 years ago) was not allowed to go to the top of Mauna Kea. So I find it hard to understand how these folks can claim that they are being kept from their religion due to a few telescopes.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Guest - 10-02-2017
Leilanidude, as usual you bring up a solid point.
Your right the common man 150 years ago or before the road to the Telescopes did NOT go to the summit of Mauna Kea. They were NOT allowed and may have respected the law that the summit was for the Ali'i ONLY. Now that the state and astronomers have opened up the summit for their best interests maybe the Hawaiians would also have an interest in the summit region. Maybe They would like to advance their traditional practices, build or prey atop the summit region to be closer to their gods and ancestors.
Folks like Eric1600 thinks anything done by the Hawaiians today on the summit of Mauna Kea is irrelevant because it would have happened after the road or first telescope was built. Maybe all churches, shrines, temples and religion practicing built or practiced after tomorrow should also be irrelevant. Maybe, if you were not already a saint, king or President before WW1 then you can't be a saint, king or president.
Does Mauna Kea belong to the people, Who really owns Mauna Kea? If the Hawaiians want to prey, gather, bury or advance their traditional ways to the Northern plateau of Mauna Kea today, Maybe they should be allowed to do so. jmo
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - PaulW - 10-02-2017
Nobody is preventing anyone from gathering or praying anywhere. There's plenty of room up there.
But some people, thankfully a tiny minority, want their wishes to trump whatever anybody else wants.
They want all the land reserved only for them. How about some respect and tolerance.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - kalakoa - 10-02-2017
some people, thankfully a tiny minority, want their wishes to trump whatever anybody else wants
Ironically, NIMBYism seems to be an "American" tradition, not "ancient" and/or "sacred".
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 10-02-2017
Nobody is preventing anyone from gathering or praying anywhere.
One example:
If you walk out the trail to Shipman Beach from the end of Beach Road in HPP, you pass through an area that in ancient times was the largest population center for Hawaiians on Big Island. If ever there is a place where one could be assured with certainty that Hawaiian religious ceremonies took place, this is the place. There are clear and obvious signs of the old village, rock walls, paddocks, and coconut groves. In almost 20 years of hiking that area I only once saw signs of a possible religious ceremony that may have taken place. But it may also have been rocks stacked by the keiki of fisherman while their parents cast their lines. I wasn't certain which it was.
A short distance north of the village is a high promenatory where it's said the first hula was performed. Once I heard someone say members of a halau from off island danced there, but other than that have never seen signs or heard reports that hula practitioners ever visit the site.
If such easily accessible places of known ancient Hawaiian culture are rarely traveled to for religious purposes, or hula, or chant, your argument gypsy, for keeping Mauna Kea as it was hundreds of years ago to provide practitioners with a place to pray, perform, or sing, is without merit, as easily accessible sites are already available but almost never used.
The Donner Party really wasn't that great of a party, was it?
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Eric1600 - 10-02-2017
Originally posted by gypsy69
#1:
...It's refreshing to see that even you can recognize their are more than one side to this discussion....
#2: If you truly would like to see an understanding or agreement within the Hawaiian community then allow the other side to have their voice and facts recognized for ONCE.... (also something about 13 times they lost to telescopes].
#3:
[Telescopes help no hawaiians]
#4:
Are you saying or writing that NO new Hawaiian ceremonies, traditions, burials, stacking of rocks, or events are allowed on the top of their mountain of Mauna Kea because they were made or started after a road or foreign telescope was built?
Why make it harder for some of the Hawaiian people today to continue to live and learn in their traditional ways?
Let's unpack this because it's all distorted.
#1: First off, I've always said since day 1 this issue is for Hawaiians to work out and I've asked you so many times to just butt out of it but you want to vocally fight for one side of Hawaiians for some reason.
#2: I personally have nothing to do with suppressing anyone's voice, but they've had 7 years now on this project to voice their concerns. They've also been invited to the EIS process for all the other telescopes and only decided under Kelly Priscotta took them to court and Nasa just gave up paying for their outrigger expansion. So two times they decided to fight, both times lead by the same person who had an axe to grind over her Ahu stone and family ashes going missing.
#3: We've had this discussion so many times now that I think you have just brain washed yourself into believing this lie.
#4: First off Hawaiians were kept away from the mountain because it was dangerous and declared Kapu. Secondly, all these people protesting up there would have been killed under Kapu. Thirdly, just because they've invented new ceremonies and declared them sacred to the culture they do not have absolute rights to the location. Period.
And lastly as pointed out in the Hearing and BLRN report, there is nothing doing them any harm or will restrict them from continuing doing what they are doing up there.
The land belongs to the state. There will always be the State of Hawaii as long as the USA exists, it's just a simple fact that wishing and screaming about treaties and occupations won't change. It beats having been occupied by Japan or had WW2 battle here instead of midway. There are countless benefits to being a state as many places, perhaps like Puerto Rico, can attest to. It's easy to forget and easy to point fingers, especially at the past.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 10-02-2017
I had no idea that stating...
"He's a greenkeeper at a golf course for rich people on the mainland. Make of that what you want."
...would send you so far off the rails. After all, it was you that told us all that's what you were doing. I post the truth and you counter with all sorts of made up nonsense. It's very reminiscent of the arguments made by the protesters in the contested case hearing that had no bearing on the truth. Fortunately, the legal system prevailed and laws were upheld, something you said people should obey (well, unless they don't suit you personally).
"King TomK is a foreign person to these islands just doing one of his jobs. He has no children, land or real connection to these Islands or it's generous Hawaiian people. He is no stranger to other sites and forums, He Enjoys drinking foreign beers and dealing with folks like me while voicing his opinions on large telescopes and new developments."
[...]
"TomK, you can think and say what you want about me due to my job of choice today, that's exercising one of your rights.
Just so you know, I quit selling various types of insurance years ago because it made me feel like a devil in clothing. I have always enjoyed the simplicity of mowing and working outside on or around golf courses. The game of golf has been great to my kids and i thus far in life. It helps me teach them how to take turns with others, how hard work creates better luck, how to stay humble and competitive, it Helps give them a code of polite conduct known as etiquette, how to appreciate the moment their in, how to stay mentally and physically flexible in life and much much more."
PS. And like one or two others, I'm fascinated by your story of how your family ended up settling in Maryland with Columbus. Surely you didn't make it up, did you?