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+--- Thread: Peacefull tmt protectors (/showthread.php?tid=21061)
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - snorkle - 07-21-2019
Not one to waste an opportunity for punawhiners to get their panties twisted; watch this video: 50 years of mismanagement
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Rob Tucker - 07-21-2019
May I ask you Glinda? Is not civil disobedience as you say "stands as a beacon of our democracy" a western concept? Is there a Hawaiian cultural or historic tradition of civil disobedience? I had been led to understand that under the Hawaiian kapu system in place before and after Captain Cook's arrival, the edicts of the King and Ali`i were the "law".
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
We had a constitution after the time period you mentioned.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Rob Tucker - 07-21-2019
That doesn't answer much. Tell me about that Constitution. Who drafted it? Some plantation owner?
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
Article 20.
The supreme power of the Kingdom in its exercises is divided into the executive, legislative, and judicial; theses shall always be preserved district , and no executive or judicial officer or any contractor or employee of the Government or any person in the receipt of salary or emoluments from the Government shall be eligible to election to the Legislature of the Hawaiian Kingdom, or to hold the position of than elective member of the same, except members of the privy council, notary public, attorney at law, and agent to take acknowledgement. And no member of the legislative assembly shall, during the time for which he is a member, be appointed to any civil office under the Government, except that of a member of the cabinet.
King/Ali'i/kapu system were not the end all be all of the law anymore.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - glinda - 07-21-2019
Is not civil disobedience as you say "stands as a beacon of our democracy" a western concept?
Yes Rob, as far as I know it is. And no, I have no idea if such a thing existed in any form in the Hawaiian Kingdom pre or post contact, or if the present Hawaiians would codify such a right going forward. But it is a right here, now, that all of us, Hawaiian and the rest of us, have grown up with. And one being exercised to further their cause today on the mountain.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Rob Tucker - 07-21-2019
I don't see how the Hawaiian Constitution of 1840 supplanted the historic and cultural perspective of The Protectors on Maunakea. Using "sacred" as a basis of approach to Maunakea seems to be in direct contrast to the Constitution of 1840. I suspect, but do not know for sure, that one or more of the missionary families drafted the constitution. There just seems to be a lot of historic cherry picking going on in the approach to TMT.
From Wikipedia:
The 1840 Constitution of the Hawaiian Kingdom titled Ke Kumuk#257;n#257;wai a me n#257; K#257;n#257;wai o ko Hawai#699;i Pae #699;#256;ina, Honolulu, 1840 was the first fully written constitution for the Hawaiian Kingdom. The need for a constitution was originally intended as a manner of laws set forth to control the Native Hawaiian population with a Western style and legal framework, giving less severe punishments, such as being exiled, than was the traditional custom until the 1840s. Christianity had failed to change many behaviors of the Hawaiian population, even with the support of the ali`i families. Adultery and many other sexual relations became forbidden. Hawaiians were arrested and sentenced to severe punishments that were not well organized. The exiled had little food and could easily swim away from the islands and the prison at Honolulu Fort. The issue became worse as fewer pardons from the ali`i were available, and the overall sentencing then became much more severe for the native population.[1]
The constitution was enacted on October 8, 1840, by King Kamehameha III and Kek`uluohi as Kuhina Nui, an office similar to Prime Minister or co-regent. The constitution, compared to its predecessor, was extremely detailed. The June 7, 1839, document, sometimes called a constitution but more similar to a declaration of rights, stated simply that the government was based on Christian values and equality for all.[2] Incorporating the 1839 document, the 1840 Constitution of the Kingdom of Hawai’i was a turning point in Hawai’i government.
This constitution organized the power of government and its functions by defining the House of Representatives as the legislative body, giving their people the power to vote, proclaiming the House of Kamehameha, establishing of the office of Kuhina Nui, creating of the office of royal governors of the various islands and recognizing Christianity as an authority.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
There were no laws on the books against practicing other religions during the Hawaiian Kingdom times. There was one about disrupting the sabbath day, but none against practicing other religions.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Rob Tucker - 07-21-2019
Hawaiian royalty ordered the end of polytheistic, historic religion. So the cultural practices were ended under the royal system in place at the time. So there was a "law" as practiced at the time. Was it "on the books"? Was there a book then?
Wikipedia: Kamehameha the Great died in 1819. In the aftermath, two of his wives, Ka`ahumanu and Ke`p`olani, then the two most powerful people in the kingdom, conferred with the kahuna nui, Hewahewa. They convinced young Liholiho, Kamehameha II, to overthrow the kapu system. They ordered the people to burn the wooden statues and tear down the rock temples.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
Why do you keep going back before the Hawaiian Kingdoms constitution? That's like if I were debating someone on Christianity and kept using the Old Testament as a reference when there's other references in the New Testament that say the opposite.
There were no laws prohibiting people from cultural practices.