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+--- Thread: Peacefull tmt protectors (/showthread.php?tid=21061)
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Rob Tucker - 07-21-2019
It is that the Protectors appear to be relying on a pre-constitution concept of Maunakea as sacred. Hawaiians (royalty) rejected the pre constitution religious practices. So there is an historic Hawaiian role in disavowing the sacred aspects and replacing that with a Christian themed constitution. So the cherry picking of Hawaiian culture is too very convenient as a leverage against the TMT. The other practices of the kapu system are not apparently useful today in this issue. I sense a contrived argument against the TMT. Each of the Protectors are, of course, free to invent their reasons for opposing TMT but I cannot see any serious devotion to Hawaiian culture except as contrived mechanisms. Perhaps I'm wrong and it's not my job to say any of these people can't respect their heritage but they sure do seem to reject most of it at the same time. Its called cherry picking.
Pre constitution is not ancient history. It is actually modern history.
More legitimate in my opinion is the mishandling of Crown property by the Kingdom itself and the later usurping of the Kingdom by the United States. But in the Kingdom the royalty embraced fancy euro clothes, palaces, jewelry and trips to Europe... all at the expense of their subjects. So the abuse of the Hawaiian people is deeper than what the Five Families or the U.S government did badly. It is a shared blame.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - ironyak - 07-21-2019
Kaimana - There were no laws on the books against practicing other religions during the Hawaiian Kingdom times.
Putting aside the fact that there were laws/decrees off the books, this resource has a good timeline and links for the Hawaiian Kingdom laws enacted.
https://law-hawaii.libguides.com/hawaiilawsonline
Of particular note is the (first?) complete Penal Code published in 1850 which has some interesting protections for action done while asserting a supposed legal right (which seems to fit the current situation - Chap XXIV, page 83) as well as Unlawful Assemblies (Chap. XXXIX, page 125). Not saying these are the laws of the land currently, just interesting to read and see how they might apply if they are expected to be upheld by those involved.
http://www.llmc.com/OpenAccess/docDisplay5.aspx?textid=33160589
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
It's hard for me to understand what specifically you're argument is. Most of it is why YOU feel it's not sacred. But the numerous experts in the subject are telling you it is sacred. Then you mix in laws from before there was a constitution and a Hawaiian renaissance. It's obvious people were still practicing the old ways or Hula would have died out. Same with Lua. Same with all the other cultural practices we still have.
This is why I said most of the people arguments on here come off as bigoted. I may have been too hasty to say that, it could just be ignorance(in the literal sense)
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
quote:
Originally posted by ironyak
Kaimana - There were no laws on the books against practicing other religions during the Hawaiian Kingdom times.
Putting aside the fact that there were laws/decrees off the books, this resource has a good timeline and links for the Hawaiian Kingdom laws enacted.
https://law-hawaii.libguides.com/hawaiilawsonline
Of particular note is the (first?) complete Penal Code published in 1850 which has some interesting protections for action done while asserting a supposed legal right (which seems to fit the current situation - Chap XXIV, page 83) as well as Unlawful Assemblies (Chap. XXXIX, page 125). Not saying these are the laws of the land currently, just interesting to read and see how they might apply if they are expected to be upheld by those involved.
http://www.llmc.com/OpenAccess/docDisplay5.aspx?textid=33160589
What page does it say it is illegal to practice other religions?
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Rob Tucker - 07-21-2019
Kaimana, I'm just making observations. Apparently Hawaii became a secular society at least at the point of the Constitution of 1840. Meanwhile I haven't seen anyone being denied a practice of religion. Someone please explain to me how the TMT denies a practice of religion.
Looking at the 1810 Constitution's sections regarding "the mountains" it appears there was only concern for divvying up the assets with the common people apparently treated as share croppers. An improvement it seems from earlier times.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - ironyak - 07-21-2019
Kaimana - What page does it say it is illegal to practice other religions?
As best I could find, it doesn't (and I don't expect that it would). Note this doesn't discount the fact that the early Hawaiian Kingdom (e.g. circa 1819) was instrumental in seeking to suppress and eliminate traditional Hawaiian cultural and religious practices. Can you at least agree to that?
And of course, not all the experts in the field agree on the sacredness of all of Mauna Kea.
https://www.civilbeat.org/2015/12/peter-apo-let-there-be-light-on-the-tmt/
I have to ask while you're here, is there any compromise possible, any arrangements made, that from your perspective would lead to an agreement by the protectors to the construction of the TMT?
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Rob Tucker - 07-21-2019
I'd suggest painting all the observatories a color to match the cinder. They'd just be another bump. I'd also suggest giving the Hawaiian Community a road accessed pad to build a heiau or two or three.... with adequate parking and loos.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
What in Peter Apo's resume makes him an expert in the field of Hawaiian history and cultural practices?
And no there is no compromise. There doesn't need to be one. They already have everything ready to build on the Canary Islands. There's other ways to add revenue to the state with out raping our natural resources and culturally significant sites.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-21-2019
They already have everything ready to build on the Canary Islands.
They could build in the Canary Islands, but that’s very different from “ready to build.” There would be another long delay to reconfigure logistics, move equipment, and then start construction there. Probably many years.
raping our natural resources and culturally significant sites.
Are all construction projects built on Mauna Kea rape, or just the TMT? All building requires grading the site, and placing a structure there. Protestors have also claimed Pohakuloa is one of the most sacred places on Big Island and it’s nowhere near the summit. Just bad luck in picking locations? Have you read the TMT site reports? Were any culturally significant artifacts found there?
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
You're playing semantics now. They were close to finishing the process of getting all the permits for the Canary Islands back in march. I can't find the article but I swear they said they had them already. I'll look for the article and get back to you.
I'm not familiar with their reasoning behind protesting PTA other than the obvious so I don't want to speak on it and spread false info.