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+--- Thread: Peacefull tmt protectors (/showthread.php?tid=21061)
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - TomK - 07-21-2019
Rob,
"I'd suggest painting all the observatories a color to match the cinder."
This is not a new idea, but it would create serious problems for the science the observatories do as well as increasing costs, er, astronomically. The reasons the observatories are white or silver is to reflect the sun's heat. If the domes were dark they would heat up significantly more than they do during the day. At night when they open, all that heat is released immediately above them which causes turbulence and you end up with extremely blurry images.
You could control the temperature inside the dome with A/C, and some observatories do, but that is an extremely expensive proposition and is not particularly green. Even that, though, doesn't entirely fix the problem as the outside of the dome would still be hot and still create problems with turbulence.
It's a nice idea, but would essentially end up making Mauna Kea a poor observing site whereas right now, it's one of the best if not the best.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - TomK - 07-21-2019
Kaimana,
"You're playing semantics now. They were close to finishing the process of getting all the permits for the Canary Islands back in march. I can't find the article but I swear they said they had them already. I'll look for the article and get back to you."
If the TMT ends up being built on La Palma, they lose about 30% of their scientific capability. There is a reason the TMT wants to build on Mauna Kea.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
They detailed the benefits and challenges of the telescope's current location, and compared them with the pros and cons of building the telescope on La Palma, or at the two locations in Chile where the other two upcoming mega-telescopes are being constructed. They found that the climate and lower altitude at La Palma would require more adaptive optics — essentially more work done at the telescope mirror and instrumentation level to correct for interference from Earth's atmosphere. The main drawbacks of ORM are that it is warm and relatively wet, which makes [mid-infrared] observations all but impossible," Michael Balogh, chairman of the CASCA/ACURA TMT Advisory Committee that authored the report, told Motherboard. "That means it takes longer to achieve the same science compared with [Mauna Kea] or Chile. But for the most part, the same science is still achievable."
https://www.space.com/37067-canadian-astronomers-consider-megatelescope-move.html
Honest question, is this article or the person they spoke to just omitting the fact that it would lose 30% of it's capability?
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - TomK - 07-21-2019
That article does actually point out the problem of moving the TMT to La Palma:
"The main drawbacks of ORM are that it is warm and relatively wet, which makes [mid-infrared] observations all but impossible," Michael Balogh, chairman of the CASCA/ACURA TMT Advisory Committee that authored the report, told Motherboard."
The TMT is designed as an optical-infrared telescope. Losing the wavelength range between 2.3 and roughly 25 microns, which is the thermal infrared for ground-based telescopes (or mid-infrared as the article calls it), would be an enormous loss of scientific capability.
It's something I discussed in a much older thread, but haven't the energy to look that up right now.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - ironyak - 07-21-2019
Kaimana - What in Peter Apo's resume makes him an expert in the field of Hawaiian history and cultural practices?
I would say he is at least as qualified as expert sources you've provided (which is none of course
. If you have a reference that established a long tradition of cultural practices at the summit, I'd be more than interested. Another approach would be to break down the notion of sacred - clearly Mauna Kea was historically recorded as the realm of the gods, but where that line is drawn and how it squares with adze quarries and modern access all gets a bit muddled.And no there is no compromise.
That's what it seems. As such there is really no need for further talks and negotiations either and all the politicians' calls for such are just no-risk pandering to kick the inevitable down the road. Either the state will secure the legal access required or will force the project to relocate (which hopefully will result in substantial lawsuits so we can all help pays for its incompetency)
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Old Croc - 07-21-2019
Re: Tulsi's July 19th statement on Mauna Kea.
"Spiritual nourishment and inspiration is of much greater and lasting value than anything money can buy."
Seriously? Are we really in the 21st Century?
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - Kaimana - 07-21-2019
"That means it takes longer to achieve the same science compared with [Mauna Kea] or Chile. But for the most part, the same science is still achievable."
So Tom, they're stating it can do the same things but it would just take longer. Is that true?
ironyak- seriously what are his credentials? I been looking all over and can't find any relative to this. On the other hand every Hawaiian studies professor is saying it's sacred. I know it's an appeal to authority, but still rather go with the people who have actually studied the subject.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - glinda - 07-21-2019
"Spiritual nourishment and inspiration is of much greater and lasting value than anything money can buy."
And, sadly, this simple truth is lost on all those that don't get, believe, understand, have faith in, whatever you want to call, it. Yet in fact, for those that do, it is central to their world view.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - TomK - 07-21-2019
Kaimana,
I struggled to understand the article until I realized it was written two years ago. At that point, if the TMT moved to La Palma, they may well have been able to build quickly enough to compete for "first light" with the ELT and GMT in Chile. Two years later, that's no longer the case.
When they say it can do the same things, they are correct for observing at optical wavelengths (i.e., the wavelength your and my eyes work at) but not at infrared wavelengths. That's where the loss of capability comes in. Some infrared observations could be done (at wavelengths below roughy 2.3 microns) but longer wavelengths just can't be done at the sensitivities astronomers need. As an aside, it is very important to observe astronomical objects at various wavelengths in order to understand the physics, it's the reason there are several observatories on Mauna Kea already (they all do different things). You need to see how an object behaves at different wavelengths before you really know what's going on.
FYI, in case you didn't know, I am an astronomer and my specialty is infrared astronomy, so do feel I'm qualified to comment on this with a little bit of authority.
RE: Peacefull tmt protectors - TomK - 07-21-2019
PS. I should add that if the TMT did move to La Palma, there is potential for one or two of their partners to pull out of the project which, obviously, is a big concern for them.