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RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Guest - 01-06-2017
What is going on in the courtroom in Hilo would never be tolerated in any court in the world, at any time in history. People would be sent to jail for contempt and given a well deserved eff-u to complaints about the 'process'.
Only here. Only in this little outpost of the 3rd world in the USA.
---------------------------
You can't fix Samsara.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - randomq - 01-06-2017
Thanks for the video link Eric1600. I also thought interesting the maneuvering by the plaintiff (lawyer?) to get the archeologist to admit anything anywhere could be a sacred historical spot without any evidence to its use or importance. Why should science or society be held hostage to the dust of some ancient royal umbilical cord? Or a neat natural rock formation someone prayed at once a hundred years ago? Is there no standard for what is worth preserving and what is just historical debris?
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 01-06-2017
Imagtek - although I think the protesters' behaviour in the hearing is reprehensible, it's a contested case hearing. I don't think the judge can send anyone to jail for contempt of court. Let's keep some perspective.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Eric1600 - 01-07-2017
Yes as a Contested Case Hearing the rules are mostly set by the hearing officer. It's not a legal trial insomuch as it is a venue to arbitrate grievances. The hearing officer has given a lot of leeway because most of the people have no legal training and are struggling with the learning curve of how to present evidence and properly cross-examine without being argumentative. Each day usually starts with a about 10-15 minutes of objections or complaints and Fergestrom has been very argumentative and "feisty" about the whole process. And most of them don't recognize the hearing officer as a proper authority figure because she represents the illegal state of Hawaii. So you can imagine some of the drama that happens.
Anyway, yesterday's testimony on the 5th by Dr. Heather Kaluna’s testimony who is a Native Hawaiian astronomer from Pahoa who graduated in 2015. Her specialty is investigating the origin of Earth's water.
Her testimony is interesting to listen to. You can find it as Jan. 5th Part 1 and Part 2.
Pisciotta argues her testimony is irrelevant because astronomy is not an issue in this case because it doesn't matter what the purpose of the structure is. Nevermind the fact that Heather Kaluna is a native Hawaiian who practices on Maunakea just like them.
Randomq--it is a common theme in this hearing to more or less "trick" people into making an error in their testimony or trap them in some kind of logic trap. The end goal I think is to try and demonstrate if they are wrong about "A" then they are wrong about "B" and "C", etc. One of the basic tricks is to try and establish that religious and "sacred" use should trump all other uses. Ahus built in the road are sacred, etc.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - kalakoa - 01-07-2017
try and establish that religious and "sacred" use should trump all other uses
My religion directs me to study the heavens for sacred inspiration, and stipulates that I should make use of any and all modern conveniences to accomplish this directive.
I therefore require not only access to the summit (via maintained roadway, which need not be paved) but also telescopes which are large enough to detect these sacred artifacts.
For these are not just "stars", their patterns and magnitudes convey the wisdom of the gods; we are not alone, here on our little rock, merely flung to the far reaches, in order to see if we will find our way back home.
That these "protectors" would prevent this ... is sacrilege, a desecration of our species.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - punaticbychoice - 01-07-2017
kalakoa:
Right. Thanks.
The "Protectors" alleged spirituality doesn't trump others views of what spirituality is.
Pisciotta should be asked for a clear exposition of just what her and the "Protectors" real objections are.
And be pressed on it, within the greater good argument for all of us here and on the rest of the Earth.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - MarkP - 01-07-2017
While the rules may not be the same as in a criminal or civil court there still must be some rules without which no such process of airing grievances could survive the onslaught of foolishness and venality that must be anticipated not just in this case but in all similar cases. There will always be attention whores drawn to any controversy of high enough profile that it promises to feed their addiction. Can obstructionists waste time by getting up in front of the court and farting the Star Spangled Banner? Can the Judge just cut to the chase and cut such people out? I doubt it in both cases but I wish I knew more about what the rules are because I see a lot of foolish time-wasting that definitely would get people thrown in jail for contempt if it were a regular courtroom.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Eric1600 - 01-08-2017
quote:Yes the "hearing officer" who happens to be a retired judge can do that. However she is determined to make sure everyone is heard and has an opportunity. Natural attrition has removed many of the trouble makers because they didn't have the stamina after they pulled their occasional stunts.
Originally posted by MarkP
Can the Judge just cut to the chase and cut such people out? I doubt it in both cases but I wish I knew more about what the rules are because I see a lot of foolish time-wasting that definitely would get people thrown in jail for contempt if it were a regular courtroom.
There are a couple very dedicated jokers. Fergerstrom who angers Amano daily with nonsense about unfairness (withholding documents, Amano attacking him, etc.) Mr. Vicnente who without pause demands from every witness to know which of the 13 US States they are "naturalized to". He also constantly demands to know if they know about the 1849 treaty. He then goes into the crown & king vs illegal state. He does this so much the opposing attorneys just say, "We object to going down this yellow brick road again." And Amano cuts him off. But this happens EVERY TIME.
He greeted Dr. Paul Coleman, a local hawaiian astronomer, "Goodmorning Sponge Bob. Uh, I mean Mr. Coleman". The attorney interrupted, "Your honor, that's inappropriate." Vicente, reponded, "Well he wanted to be informed so I called him Sponge Bob." Amano didn't get it and the attorney said Dr. Coleman has thick skin, so lets just move on.
You can see a typical Vincete performance by watching http://naleo.tv/VOD/ Jan. 5th Part 2 at the 97:00 time mark. He at least has a sense of humor about the situation unlike Fergerstrom who is a very angry individual.
I would suggest people also watch the Jan. 5 Part 2 testimony of Dr. Coleman because his testimony is very interesting and it challenges a lot of assertions by the petitioners who are very upset with some of the things he points out.
He went up the mountain every year starting in 1987. He points out that only recently (around outrigger and TMT) time frame had he seen any evidence that anyone thought Maunakea was particularly sacred and he didn't witness any religious activities up there.
He gives them all a lesson in how telescopes are not money making endeavors and it is surprising the level of ignorance displayed by two of the petitioners who seem to think the telescope gets pimped out.
He also challenges the petitioners to prove the area is sacred as they claim which pisses many of them off. In fact one petitioner repeatedly cut him off so he couldn't expound on his answers that challenge their assumptions.
He was a sharp witness who they kept trying to discredit his testimony because he was "not a cultural expert" and "was not a religious practitioner". They wanted to show he was a tool by the astronomy industry, but he just told him, "There are a lot of astrophysicists in Hilo but only a few that grew up here. They wanted a local perspective and I made it clear I wanted to testify to anyone who wanted to hear it. That's how I ended up here. I'm not paid to be here. I'm just giving a local boy's opinion." Which they all tried hard to discount because it angered them. They challenged his assertion that "only a few people oppose" the TMT by saying, "didn't you see about 1,000 people block the road?!" He tried to say, "Yes, but didn't you see how few native Hawaiians were there?" but they aggressively tried to talk over him.
Anyway his testimony on Jan 5, Part 2 is worth a watch. You can read his written testimony here https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/mk/files/2016/10/TIO-EXH-C-17.pdf it's only about 3 pages. In it he says:
quote:
How sacred is Maunakea? How important is it to the Hawaiian people? These are questions which must be answered by each Hawaiian, but my answer is simple. My auntie Morni Mo 'okini Lum is the kahuna nui of the Mo 'okini luakini heiau in Kohala and I consider that heiau to be more important than the summit of Maunakea to our people. In fact, I can point to many other places which I consider to be much more important than Maunakea.
[...]Every effort that I am familiar with, to search these large repositories of knowledge, have found no mention of Mauna o Wakea. In fact, only passing mention of Mauna Kea in a handful of articles usually describing a visit by a dignitary to the summit, have been found in all the hundreds of written texts. The stories often highlight the difficulties involved in travel by horseback-no mention of the sacredness of the mountain can be found! This lack of historical support for the "sacredness" of the mountain is in direct contradiction to the claims of the protesters.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 01-08-2017
In fact, only passing mention of Mauna Kea in a handful of articles... have been found in all the hundreds of written texts. The stories often highlight the difficulties involved in travel by horseback-no mention of the sacredness of the mountain can be found! This lack of historical support for the "sacredness" of the mountain is in direct contradiction to the claims of the protesters.
This is what I've found as well. Little has been written about Mauna Kea as a sacred mountain, there is almost nothing to support the claims made that it is a burial ground, or a site of worship. I've posted a request on Punaweb asking supporters and defenders to cite any evidence of these assertions, but no one has been able to do so.
I believe Protectors and their supporters hope no one will question them on this topic, or if someone does they can feign offense that anyone would dare doubt their descriptions of an ancient connection between Mauna Kea, their religion and culture. I believe there is a connection, but not in the way they allege it to be.
I don't mind if they'd like to create their own religion around a sacred Mauna Kea, but they should say that's what they're doing, instead of inventing their own personal alternate history.
"Only fear real things, such as minds full of delusions." -Last Aphorisms
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 01-08-2017
Just wanted to thank Eric1600 for the recent posts and links. I've not had the time to watch all the links but will do. The comments Erik1600 quoted by Coleman and Kaluna are very consistent with my observations over the last 25 years or so. However, I have seen some religious ceremonies up there, all of them at either solstices or equinoxes and on each occasion, MKSS and the observatories gave their full support and helped to enable those celebrations to happen, including emergency medical assistance.