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+--- Thread: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo (/showthread.php?tid=17312)
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RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - 2liveque - 01-10-2017
Ku, like many Hawaiian leaders throughout the state has to be very careful in how she selects her words. She and her school have been great beneficiaries of the Superman, also known as Daniel K. Inouye. Her school has produced some of the most hardened of the young Mauna "protectors." DKI's graciousness has painted many Hawaiians into the corner when it comes to Astronomy and the TMT. Their opposition to the TMT becomes symbolic at best, used to protect themselves from appearing to be supportive. The dichotomy that has been created is as ridiculous as it is useless.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Guest - 01-10-2017
quote:Any official holding that the mountain is "Sacred" would be, in effect, a government-endorsed establishment of religion, giving one religion preference over others.
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
In fact, only passing mention of Mauna Kea in a handful of articles... have been found in all the hundreds of written texts. The stories often highlight the difficulties involved in travel by horseback-no mention of the sacredness of the mountain can be found! This lack of historical support for the "sacredness" of the mountain is in direct contradiction to the claims of the protesters.
This is what I've found as well. Little has been written about Mauna Kea as a sacred mountain, there is almost nothing to support the claims made that it is a burial ground, or a site of worship. I've posted a request on Punaweb asking supporters and defenders to cite any evidence of these assertions, but no one has been able to do so.
I believe Protectors and their supporters hope no one will question them on this topic, or if someone does they can feign offense that anyone would dare doubt their descriptions of an ancient connection between Mauna Kea, their religion and culture. I believe there is a connection, but not in the way they allege it to be.
I don't mind if they'd like to create their own religion around a sacred Mauna Kea, but they should say that's what they're doing, instead of inventing their own personal alternate history.
"Only fear real things, such as minds full of delusions." -Last Aphorisms
Other religions don't hold the mountain to be sacred, so such an official declaration would amount to giving preference to one religion (those who old it "SACRED") over others (those who don't hold it to be "SACRED"), and thereby violate the "Establishment" clause of Article 1, BOR, IMHO.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 01-10-2017
"Decision time for the Thirty Meter Telescope"
"There’s a very real question, though, of whether that will be possible on Maunakea. Even if TMT gets a new construction permit, and that permit is affirmed by the state supreme court, there’s likely to be renewed protests by native Hawaiian groups who oppose construction of any new observatory on the mountain they consider sacred. The earlier protests, after all, had very little to do about claims of procedural flaws in awarding the original construction permit."
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/3140/1
Although this article was only posted yesterday (Jan 9th, 2017) it doesn't even include and consider the recent ruling that another contested hearing is required.
"At the end of the town hall meeting, Bolte reiterated the TMT’s preference to building the observatory on Maunakea. “But, you adjust your expectations to reality,” he said. “We’ve all spent a lot of time and somebody’s dollars on this project. And if the choice is walk away, or an alternative site, I think everyone will go for an alternative site.”"
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 01-10-2017
Very interesting watching some of Tuesday's testimony:
http://naleo.tv/VOD/
I don't know how to give a direct link to the video, but if you go to that link select the "videos" tab and then choose TMT hearing coverage, Jan 10, 2017 (Part 1).
Then go to 118 minutes into the video. Lincoln Ashida takes over and asks some very specific questions, basically about compromise. It ends around the 127:30 mark.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - TomK - 01-10-2017
Kirt,
"I am so sick of magical thinking masquerading as Truth that trumps reality, that trumps every logical point, that "elevates" the magical thinker to superior status and immunity from reason."
For some reason, I keep being reminded of the Galileo affair.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
Well said, by the way.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Eric1600 - 01-11-2017
I did find it interesting that Marti Townsen is guilty of the things the petitioners accused other Hawaiians of: paid to be there and not an expert and has been a long time paid witness and lawyer against telescopes since 2005. I found it surprising that as a lawyer she said if the legal requirements were met for the telescope that there would be an "attempt" to build a telescope and was careful not to say they had a legal right to build it. She also believes that any compromise over the TMT is not an option.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 01-11-2017
For some reason, I keep being reminded of the Galileo affair.
I can see what you mean. His detractors were a dedicated bunch, and went through no small effort to keep the truth from the world. Mainly for their own vested interests:
Galileo's initial discoveries were met with opposition within the Catholic Church, and in 1616 the Inquisition declared heliocentrism to be formally heretical. Heliocentric books were banned and Galileo was ordered to refrain from holding, teaching or defending heliocentric ideas.
Galileo complained that some of the philosophers who opposed his discoveries had refused even to look through a telescope.
"Only fear real things, such as minds full of delusions." -Last Aphorisms
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - punaticbychoice - 01-11-2017
HOTPE @ 7:11:46
The "Protectors" here remind me of a Monty Python skit: "Spanish Inquisition".
Anyone else here remember that skit?
At least that was humor- this anti TMT stuff is a depressing tragedy for all of us- even the "Protectors"
of a mythology or whatever.
They just don't know it yet.
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 01-11-2017
magical thinking masquerading as Truth
...
reminded of the Galileo affair.
I've been pondering the connection between those recent comments by knieft & TomK.
In the early 1600's the Catholic Church preferred to maintain the status quo, the belief in a geocentric universe. People had been told it was proven in the Bible, and besides it's self evident, isn't it? Sit outside on a warm, clear night and look up at the sky. It's magical. The stars, planets, and moon obviously move around the earth. You can't feel yourself going anywhere, can you?
Galileo and his heliocentric ideas on the other hand, required you understand words like orbit, circular, elliptical, retrograde, and planetary phases. You might have to LOOK THROUGH A TELESCOPE in order to recognize the effects of these distant, minute motions in space. I can imagine parishioners sitting on a wooden church pew upon hearing this news, looking at each other and thinking to themselves, "a telescope? I don't want look through that! Do I? I wonder what a telescope is?"
Through all of this, remember, the people are told the Catholic Church and it's leader the Pope, are infallible.
Fast forward a decade or two. Telescopes become more widely available, and the church can no longer deny the fact that the earth does in reality orbit around the sun. Even their own Jesuit astronomers say it's true. So the church pivots in what might be described as a 180 degree turn by scientists, but let's just say they did an about face so as not to push too much on them too fast. Yes, they declare, the earth does revolve around the sun, as do the other planets in our solar system. It's the truth! It's also confirmed in the Bible. Come back next Sunday and we'll explain how.
Oh, and don't forget. We're still infallible!
Now here we are in the present day, at the TMT hearings, and we find some people still don't want to look through a telescope, especially one with "adaptive optics."
"Adaptive optics! I don't want that, do I?"
"It sounds like it has something to do with the military, doesn't it?"
"Well, I definitely don't want that!"
RE: TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo - Guest - 01-11-2017
Yesterday's Jan 10th contested case hearing video can be watched here.
http://naleo.tv/VOD/
Ms. Marti Townsend was awesome. I either found myself learning from her or agreeing with her on most issues. jmo