TMT Work to Resume Says Ige!

[kalakoa]

Kalakoa's latest ignorant, insensitive, and racist rant

Really hoping for anothe ban from Rob -- I got so much more work done during the last one. Thanks for your vote of support, Captain Snork!

[punaticbychoice]

TomK:
I'm going back to see what my Celtic traditional (Brehon) law says about this.
kalakoa and faroutsider:
Shakespearean tragi-comedy is what keeps popping into my head about this current
situation. But it's not literary, it's real, and I worry for all our future well-being.
Just to say it again: I support science and the TMT. I support sustainable and survivable
use of resources for food, energy and shelter. I will not support ignorance and posturing.
I had to laugh at Snorkle's story though.

[kalakoa]

If people move here, they will have to have their own income, all the government jobs are for locals, and that leaves few independent employers.

Exactly: the County/State have a vested interest in discouraging independent employers, because non-government jobs are a threat to their stranglehold on the economy.

[punaticbychoice]

kalakoa@ 08:57:04:
My experiences here seem to support your observation. At least it is something to explain
what happened to me here.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

"You dumber than mongoose... It mean someone stole tent."

Not all local people (assuming Kimo is a local resident) speak in broken English. I am offended by the depths of ignorance and bias of your post.

(It's not hard to be offended by anything and everything if you put a little effort into it. Almost no effort is required, see above)

Grumbling, angry, H word, ignorant, insensitive, racist, intolerant, myopic...
Go ahead, keep turning over rocks to see if you'll find anything under them that offends you. Next time you do, please start with those rolled into the road up Mauna Kea, because you'd actually be doing everyone a favor if you moved them out of the way.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Protestor quote: "The safety of the mountain is of utmost importance...

TomK replied: You know, there are just so many things wrong with this.

Yes, that's what I thought too. It doesn't make any sense. The protestors bring in their own porta-potties and claim it's some kind of aloha for the tourists? In the meantime they roam about the sacred mountain defiling it with their waste when they are too far away to walk miles back to the plastic outhouses.

Do the newspapers and TV stations not see the hypocrisy in this act? Yes, you can dress it up as a gift of fertility to the sacred Mauna as one person tried to do, but let's just tell it like it is, they are crapping and pissing their way across the mountain which they claimed was sacred.

Would authentic Hawaiian practitioners find this acceptable? What punishment would a Hawaiian chief or king impose on his subjects for this action? Subjects who were not even allowed to step foot on the mountain, much less defecate all over it.

There should be editorials across the state calling for this desecration to stop, which would at least require the protestors to answer for their lawless actions in the management area. But instead, no one wants to talk about something that's uncomfortable, something not to be brought up in decent company.

What's more indecent though, allowing them to continue, or bringing their actions into a public forum and asking that they explain themselves?

Now I am not squeamish about humans "going direct" and skipping the septic field or cesspool. But I think it's disingenuous for any protestor to claim they are on a quest to perform their sacred duty in protecting the mountain on the one hand, then, when they think no one is looking, doing just the opposite and hope no one is the wiser.

Seeing may be believing, but you don't have to see or even imagine this is happening ever day. If protestors are going to use any means necessary to justify their end goals, then they have certainly found the lowest possible way to both go about their business, while they follow the call of nature on Mauna a Wakea.

[opihikao]

snorkel stated: I can't believe the depths of ignorance and bias this site has fallen into. A couple of years ago most of the angry white geezers left punaweb to form their own ill fated puna online. After a period of mutual grumbling, they faded into obscurity (I guess; who goes there?).

Ironically, punaweb has become puna online. What was once an interesting, humorous, helpful venue to exchange ideas and information has become a snivel room

This part of the entire post I agree with. The balance, not so much, with due respect, knowing the intent for "levity" in this volatile issue.

Personally, (with ohana on both sides, again) none have stated anyone is "pooping" on Mauna a Wakea, neither protestors nor visitors that we know of. If there is hard proof of this action, please post the source and evidence, as those who violate not just American law, but basic human decency, should be taken to task.

Further, the meeting held last week between UH/DNLR/Gov. Office, of which the information I get is from the source ("na na I ke kumu", means "look to the source") the plan is to discredit the protestors, and "claim" they are pooping all over, throwing rocks on the road, building walls, etc. Thus, the road must be closed due to "safety". With the current information, I have received, I call BS. Below is a video taken yesterday, of the road being clear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS3xAmKgFfI&feature=player_embedded

Now, when a UH official states (from their mouth to my ear) that we need to show the protestors are "desecrating" the mountain with crap (literally), I say prove it.

If any of you have, again, hard proof of this action by protestors, please post it here, and I will forward accordingly. There are only a handful there since the last big showing.

There is HEWA on both sides, and FACTS need to be separated from pure fiction, rumor, and innuendo; from both sides.

BTW, for what it's worth, the protestors of my ohana have an extremely good relationship with the Mr. Tom's of the mountain. Their issue is with TMT. I still maintain, this is not all about TMT, as stated before.

There is balance somewhere, and our ohana continues to strive for that balance.

Akua be with us all, and provide strength and guidance, protection, and most important, wisdom.


Aloha to all.

JMO.

[Chunkster]

Opihikao, I understand how you have to walk a tightrope with family on both sides and respect that you seek balance. What I don't understand is why the protesters are picking the TMT as their focus when we all know that there are much worse entities out there materially harming Hawaiians. Those entities are OHA and DHHL. When people die of old age on the waiting list for land allotments and insider contractors get work at two to three times the going rate even for unionized Hawaii, it really becomes absurd to try to block a project that will inject money, skills, and knowledge into the Hawaiian and Island communities. Until OHA and DHHL are reformed or replaced, things will not get better for Hawaiians. For the sake of argument, let's suppose (God forbid) that the protesters get their way, and the TMT goes elsewhere. The result would be the drying up of what little outside investment this island could ever expect to get. Nobody wants to invest in a place where a tiny group of radicals can undo a seven year process of permits, hearings, and court challenges by breaking the law with impunity.

As for the goal of sovereignty, this whole fiasco has set that cause back immeasurably. Due to the failure of responsible, level-headed Hawaiian leaders to oppose the protesters, these radicals are now perceived as the leaders of the Hawaiian national movement. I know it is a cultural thing for Hawaiians NOT to be confrontational with one another in front of an audience. I totally get that. This is an instance, however, where that deeply held value is extremely counterproductive. The arena in which sovereignty will be decided is the arena of a Western republic where open debate will heavily influence the outcome. This might be the time to engage in some open criticism and damage control over the elements who seem to have no respect for that repulic or its laws. Sadly, if you allow yourselves to be defined by your most radical and inflexible faction, the support of the non-Hawaiian majority of this state for some form of Hawaiian nation will eventually be lost. I don't see it happening or succeeding without such support.

And finally, I don't think it is racist or biased to raise these issues. I ask my friends tough questions on a regular basis to try to help them out. I sincerely hope you see this in that light.

[MarkP]

I agree with Chunkster.

[opihikao]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chunkster

Opihikao, I understand how you have to walk a tightrope with family on both sides and respect that you seek balance. What I don't understand is why the protesters are picking the TMT as their focus when we all know that there are much worse entities out there materially harming Hawaiians. Those entities are OHA and DHHL. When people die of old age on the waiting list for land allotments and insider contractors get work at two to three times the going rate even for unionized Hawaii, it really becomes absurd to try to block a project that will inject money, skills, and knowledge into the Hawaiian and Island communities. Until OHA and DHHL are reformed or replaced, things will not get better for Hawaiians. For the sake of argument, let's suppose (God forbid) that the protesters get their way, and the TMT goes elsewhere. The result would be the drying up of what little outside investment this island could ever expect to get. Nobody wants to invest in a place where a tiny group of radicals can undo a seven year process of permits, hearings, and court challenges by breaking the law with impunity.

As for the goal of sovereignty, this whole fiasco has set that cause back immeasurably. Due to the failure of responsible, level-headed Hawaiian leaders to oppose the protesters, these radicals are now perceived as the leaders of the Hawaiian national movement. I know it is a cultural thing for Hawaiians NOT to be confrontational with one another in front of an audience. I totally get that. This is an instance, however, where that deeply held value is extremely counterproductive. The arena in which sovereignty will be decided is the arena of a Western republic where open debate will heavily influence the outcome. This might be the time to engage in some open criticism and damage control over the elements who seem to have no respect for that repulic or its laws. Sadly, if you allow yourselves to be defined by your most radical and inflexible faction, the support of the non-Hawaiian majority of this state for some form of Hawaiian nation will eventually be lost. I don't see it happening or succeeding without such support.

And finally, I don't think it is racist or biased to raise these issues. I ask my friends tough questions on a regular basis to try to help them out. I sincerely hope you see this in that light.

---

Mahalo, Chunkster, for the reasoned response (as always). (BBM) Truer words were never spoken. OHA and DHHL need to be dissolved, and/or put into receivership. Both are miserable failures since their inception. Many of us have fought for changes in both organizations for decades. It's beyond sickening.

As to the TMT, not since the Kaho'olawe issue, has there been a platform for the Hawaiian people to rise and speak for the wrong that has been done. It may not be "right", however, so many promises have been made (not all kept to date) with regard to Mauna Kea (Ige stated the same), it lends for more substance to the argument. This is on "conservation land" (western term), which are considered "Crown Lands" (Kingdom/Nation term). Therein lies the rub.

Yes, TMT has made bigger promises that the other leases, and the UH/DLNR has worked for seven (7) years on this. The voice of the opposition was not taken into consideration at that time, up until today. The protestors are not just up there on a whim; well, most of them. This has been an argument since the first meeting seven years ago, which resulted in "cultural consultants" being dismissed quickly, as to opinion.

TMT was warned about the potential backlash/protest. The entity did everything they could to provide "more" than the $1.00 (yes, one (1) measly US dollar) per year lease rent. Good. However, there are still machinations going on with both sides. No question in my mind.

I sincerely believe this is a process of finding compromise. The onus is upon those who choose to make a difference in teaching our keiki, or learning from them, instead of chastising each other. We are not heathens; none of us. We are all human beings. Aloha kekahi I kehaki, as best we can, through this difficult time.

(Second BBM) As to the sovereignty argument, the "Western republic" will never, ever, ever, rule in favor of the Hawaiian movement. Never. "They" are the "occupier", "they" are the ones who overthrew our Kingdom, and Clinton's apology means squat. We (Hawaiians) need to just deal with it, and move forward. Reparation is due, absolutely.

TMT cannot provide "reparation", nor should they (not their fight), and has permits to proceed. If the Supreme Court rules otherwise (which is quite possible; reference US Federal law. "106" will be presented as case history with regard to funding of TMT; oral arguments set for August) it could be a problem for all of us. TMT will appeal, sue the State, etc., etc., etc. Hot freaking mess.

Finally, mahalo again, Chunkster, I do take your post in that light, and appreciate the discussion. It is a breath of fresh air, given the continued snark on this thread (and other threads) here lately. Civil discussion is usually productive, while "snark" is always destructive. Sincere thanks.

Going to catch up on the politics section on PW and see if there's any new Mayoral candidates...Hell, I hope we get a another Governor, too. [xx(]

Have a good evening.

JMO.