Volcanic Eruptions Detected With Muons

[TomK]

TomK,

      Seems I need to treat you as a student here.
   
[...] Lots of irrelevent stuff deleted.

This is why I have stated that using artificially created muons in the form of highly concentrated muon beams would be far more likely capable of being used to produce an early warning system for volcanic eruptions. Using such techniques, several volcanic maps a day could be created, ultimately becoming more effective at becoming an early warning system.

As per your reply, I can only deduce that you didn't understand a damn thing that was being discussed.

OK, go ahead and build those devices that will emit muon beams and the detectors that go with them and perform the tomography. You do understand you'll need to build an awful lot of them, right? Very big ones as well. And with technology that hasn't been invented yet. In the meantime, HOTPE and I were discussing the current technique of muography; its benefits and cons, until it was disrupted by you and your rather daft anti-science supporters who only speak in insults and likely have no clue what this thread is about let alone what a muon is.

---

Is it just me or does Tom remind you of Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory?

More arrogant and not as intelligent.

"The Idgit of the Dome"

This from the idgit who thinks sound is amplified when travelling over water. Tell us again how helicopters are louder for folks living by the ocean when the helicopter is a mile offshore compared to 1500 ft overhead.

[Wao nahele kane]

Tom,

I see you've added cheese with that whine and why not, you're on vacation now, enjoy.

[TomK]

For those interested in the subject rather than just being upset by real science or reality, this is a video worth watching. No matter what has been said in this thread by those who really don't know what they are talking about and just want to look smart by using words they don't understand, muography is a tested method that uses naturally occurring cosmic rays to measure where magma is.

https://youtu.be/QmpMPyx8c_k

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

For those interested in the subject 

Thanks TomK, very informative video.  It made the use of muons as a technique for measuring magma beneath volcanoes look even more promising in the years to come.  Quite a number of successful test applications around the world already.

[TomK]

If my understanding is right, this technique would be unlikely to predict a rift zone eruption in Hawaii, it's really aimed at looking at the magma (or lack of it) in the volcano itself rather than magma below the ground. For instance, it can probably be used to measure magma underneath Halemaumau because you can put detectors on the side of the mountain, but the rift zone would likely require detectors underground, so it has its limitations. But it it looks to be a very useful tool for predicting eruptions despite what the naysayers post.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

unlikely to predict a rift zone eruption in Hawaii

Yes, I think it said since the particles are cosmic in origin (or from a giant collider) they would for now have to penetrate laterally, as through a volcanic cone rising above the surrounding terrain.

[TomK]

Exactly. Think about sunlight - it gets scattered so we see light from all directions, even when the sun is setting. In the case of muons, they are created by primary cosmic rays all over our atmosphere so we see them from all sorts of directions, so even though their flux drops off the lower you look in the atmosphere, they are still there (they don't drop straight down, they scatter all over the sky). Given we know the flux from anywhere in the sky, we also know if we see less of them something is in the way, just like an X-ray of our body. Solid rock and magma affect the cosmic rays differently, so you can tell what's in the way.

It's a really smart technique and doesn't need an artificial source of muons - we get them for free. The hard part is making sure your detector or detectors are in enough different positions to provide a 3-d map. At the very least you need three separate positions, and six would be even better.

[Wao nahele kane]

Some great points but lacking some realities that accompany muon tomography and present limits to the technology as it exists today.
I don't see any points with respect to exposure times and their effects on imaging a dynamic subject.

For example...
Imaging a nuclear reactors tank walls, reactor core tank walls are a fairly static bodies, unless they encounter a failure. Muon tomography works well with fairly static subjects. Imaging a nuclear reactors tank walls can take a few months of exposure time due to the rather low flux of cosmic-ray muons. If an anomaly is detected in the tanks walls after producing an image, it's a possible sign of degradation.

A volcano, and specifically highly active volcanoes such as Kilauea and Mauna Loa are fairly dynamic subjects relative to a reactor cores tank walls.
The internal magma reservoir and the rift zones are in a state of fairly continual change relative to a reactor tank walls. 

Assume you create a 3d image of Kilauea internally from current muon tomography methodology. Let's use 9 months as an example for the exposure time needed to gather the desired resolution, might only be 6 months, doesn't matter, it takes many month. We can assume changes that occure during those 9 months will result in blurred areas of the final 3d image.

As an example, 5 seconds of exposure time using a camera to get a shot of a seascape shoreline. We get something like this...
   
No waves are seen, just a foggy appearance where the wave action occured. 
The same will apply to structural and content changes in a muon tomography based image of a highly active volcano. That's due to the exposure time needed to generate an image from such a low flux source (Cosmic-ray muons). 

No doubt such images may be of use to local geologists, but to what extent? Certainly they could determine where activity was occuring during that 9 month period of exposure time, but exactly what sort of activity was occuring? Could highly active volcanoes eruptions really be something a muon tomography based image provide, considering it takes such a long exposure time to generate a single image and the image will be blurred in regions that move?

Maybe if you had hundreds or possibly throusands of sensors set up and amongst them, sub groupings that provided a picture once every 9 months and all sequenced to provide you with a single image every day. Then you could sequence the images as they arrive and make a video over a year period with 365 frames total and add to it the following year. That might work to provide potential eruption data. 


Now, imagine moving the rocks around in the seascape shoreline image as the image was being exposed. Explaining what happened during the subjects exposure time that's lumped into one image, that takes on a whole other challenge. 

I would say, muon tomography as it exists today would be better suited to assist in determination of potential eruption in Yellow Stone volcano or Mount Rainier as well as other dormant type volcanoes. Sure, generate some images of Kilauea and Mauna Loa, they'd be helpful but limited. It's all about limited resources and where they're potentially most beneficial.

[Wao nahele kane]

I just realized that I need to clarify what I mean by a highly active volcano such as Kilauea. Because that aspect has obviously escaped TomK's recognition, I shouldn't have assumed he knew what a highly active volcano implies, particularly Kilauea. An active volcano is defined as a volcano that is either about to erupt or is erupting. Not all volcanoes erupt the same.

You cannot practically use muons to determine when Kilauea will erupt as it's erupting now. We can see that with our own eyes and no muon tomography is needed to determine the state of Kilauea with respect to eruption. Kilauea is erupting at this very moment and pretty much in a continual state of eruption in some form or another, with very brief rest periods between it's very long eruptions. Are there lava flows exiting the crater or lava fountains at this time? Not really, but there is an eruption occuring from a single vent in the western wall of Halemaʻumaʻu crater, according to today's and yesterday's, etc volcano summaries.
HVO Kilauea -
"Activity Summary: Kīlauea volcano is erupting from a single vent in the western wall of Halemaʻumaʻu crater. As of this morning, November 29, 2021, all lava activity is confined within Halemaʻumaʻu crater in Hawai‘i Volcanoes National Park. Seismic activity and volcanic gas emission rates remain elevated."

Mauna Loa, you might be able to predict when lava is destined to emerge at its caldera surface, "erupt", but then you're left with wondering if it will decide to flow outside the confines of the caldera immediately and pose a threat downslope or just emerge at the caldera surface and move around within it for days, weeks or months on end, before finally venturing downslope.

So, using muons to predict eruptions from other dormant volcanoes is definitely possible but using them to determine when lava will flow out of an already erupting Hawaii volcano and threaten downslope residence, not likely a practical endevour. Tracking lava within a rift dike, maybe possible, but they flow through pretty quickly. Then you're left guessing which established fissure as they occure, will the lava pop out of... ? Some will keep the lava restrained while others may allow the lave to punch through to the surface.

[TomK]

So, using muons to predict eruptions from other dormant volcanoes is definitely possible but using them to determine when lava will flow out of an already erupting Hawaii volcano and threaten downslope residence, not likely a practical endevour. Tracking lava within a rift dike, maybe possible, but they flow through pretty quickly. Then you're left guessing which established fissure as they occure, will the lava pop out of... ? Some will keep the lava restrained while others may allow the lave to punch through to the surface.

No one has claimed muography will predict lava flows. It's being used to predict volcanic eruptions, simple as that.