MK controversy thread

[MyManao]

Thanks, MyManao...

Thank you. You know, to me this is so simple. But when kalakoa posts that he left Hawaii partly because of our struggles, it reflected such a dichotomy between my experiences and other's.

I have lived almost 50 years of my life here, and I feel blessed to have had such an enriched life because of the Hawaiian culture. From the minute I landed I have been in awe of the spirit of aloha. Why would anyone not be in love with the people of these island? WTF? Hawaiians are the kindest, most loving, and truly the most open and giving people on the planet, if we let them be. But no, so many come here and instead of opening themselves they expect others to be as closed minded as they are. Instead of realizing there are different ways of living our lives, of seeing things, of feeling things, they expect everyone else is just like them. It's sad. Especially when the alternative is so rewarding, so enriching.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Instead of realizing there are different ways of living our lives, of seeing things, of feeling things, they expect everyone else is just like them.

In one instance it’s colonialism.
In another, it’s called uniting the islands.

It all depends on how you define the borders, and where you designate the borders.  There are some Native Hawaiians who still consider Kamehameha a usurper, and their former chief the legitimate ruler over a part of Maui.  They spoke out when an upcountry school was named after Kamehameha many years ago.

I walked through the Ka’u Desert in Hawaii Volcanoes National Park recently.  There are color information placards that discuss the many bloody battles which occurred there.

History is rarely the way people wish to remember it, especially if they are promoting an ideal or better times in the good old days.  History in reality is generally messy, with a lot of the unpleasantness swept under the carpet or lauhala mat.  Everywhere on earth.

[Punatang]

Thanks, MyManao...

Thank you. You know, to me this is so simple. But when kalakoa posts that he left Hawaii partly because of our struggles, it reflected such a dichotomy between my experiences and other's.

I have lived almost 50 years of my life here, and I feel blessed to have had such an enriched life because of the Hawaiian culture. From the minute I landed I have been in awe of the spirit of aloha. Why would anyone not be in love with the people of these island? WTF? Hawaiians are the kindest, most loving, and truly the most open and giving people on the planet, if we let them be. But no, so many come here and instead of opening themselves they expect others to be as closed minded as they are. Instead of realizing there are different ways of living our lives, of seeing things, of feeling things, they expect everyone else is just like them. It's sad. Especially when the alternative is so rewarding, so enriching.

MyManao you have eloquently expressed something that I agree with completely (above). Uncle Ted Kaikuahiwi graciously taught me how to enter and contribute in the lo'i. He also taught me how to make a mean umbrella out of the giant 'ape. That was all a very long time ago.  I too feel overwhelmingly blessed and enriched by our amazing Hawaiian Hosts. I don't really have a position on the thread but your thought above stands on it's own. Thanks for sharing that. I wish for everyone the joy of internalizing that message.

[kalianna]

I think another way to address this is to ask, "And how is this western model working out for everybody?" There is a lot of wisdom in traditional Hawaiian practices. Listen. Learn.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

 "And how is this western model working out for everybody?" There is a lot of wisdom in traditional Hawaiian practices. Listen. Learn.

Yes. And it can become a benefit for everyone.
Bishop Estates and Kam Schools have provided wonderful educational opportunities for Hawaiians, thanks to the a combination of Hawaiian generosity and wise investment practices paired with a western business model that provided the initial principal.

Many Hawaiians have decided to adopt Christianity as their religion of choice.  It doesn’t seem to be an affront to those who practice traditional Hawaiian religion.

When I was in business I always billed my Hawaiian customers the lowest wholesale price if they used their purchases in Hawaiian cultural events.  They often expressed their appreciation, because very few did this for them.

There are many other examples of cooperation improving the lives of everyone.

[MyManao]

Just because.. if you think the issue of the TMT is limited to a telescope and it's place on our Mauna you are missing the point entirely. If you think the 'rule of law' is a fixed unchanging, rigid, modality in which we all live, you are missing the point. Hawaii is the home of the Hawaiians, and they are getting stronger, and more centered, more grounded, and proud in themselves with every breath they take.

As I said, the whole thing is in motion. The brothers and sisters that occupied Kahoolawe are saints. They sparked the renaissance, the people have their language, and with it their minds are being formed not as Americans but as Hawaiians, and there is no stopping them now. It may be unfortunate that the TMT has become the icon, but it has, and it will not be built unless someone grows a pair and addresses the core issues, and the people, involved.

Look at these people. Face it. It is not going away..



And for god's sake, as  kalianna pointed out, would you really want it any other way?

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

brothers and sisters that occupied Kahoolawe are saints. They sparked the renaissance

Yes they were, they managed to stop the needless, incessant, unsettling bombing of the island.
It’s also another excellent example of when cooperation benefited many people.  In this case, between the Native Hawaiian people and the visitor industry. 

sparked the renaissance

Before the 1990’s most of Wailea Beach on Maui was sand and kiawe.  There was one hotel nearby, The Maui Renaissance.  Construction of the Grand Wailea, Four Seasons, and Kea Lani was underway, as well as condos, restaurants and private beachfront homes along the Kihei-Wailea coast.  There were boat tours and snorkel trips to Molokini.  And bombing practice by the navy just a few miles away.  

The bombing was finally halted, thanks to cooperation and input from many who were affected, money was appropriated to try and clean up the unexploded ordinance on Kahoolawe.  Today the island is quiet, and native plants have returned to the arid island.  People can enjoy the sunset in peace from Maalaea to Makena, and upcountry in Kula.  A side note, the Navy formerly said their bombs helped the plants to grow because their actions were like a farmer who plowed his field.  I think the plants are doing better now that Native Hawaiians planted and cared for reintroduced indigenous botanicals in areas that have been once again made safe for life.  

[randomq]

MyManao, I would want it any other way because I was taught that we are all equal, and that America is a great melting pot where we combine all of our great cultures to forge an even stronger alloy. I don't think identity politics and divisiveness accomplishes anything except letting the ruling elites divide and conquer their subjects. I think their is value in knowing our history, celebrating our cultures, and not repeating the same mistakes, but not in trying to travel back in time to the "good old days", which were never as good as we remember.

I think the point being missed entirely is that there are almost 1.5 million people living in Hawaii now from all sorts of different races, cultures, and religions. No one group has any right to impose their opinion on all the rest. Democracy and the rule of law with everyone treated fairly and equally is the only way.

[MyManao]

I was taught that we are all equal

Yeah, we all were raised on fairytales.. though I'd suggest, especially after witnessing how a defunct despot who has lots of money is treated far differently than you or I would be if we committed the crimes he has, that's only a soundbite.. it has nothing to do with reality.

I'd also suggest the Hawaiian people don't see it that way either. But, regardless, I think there is room in our laws to honor our transgressions and provide ways to make amends, and that the government is not immune to having to do so itself. 

Hawaii was stolen. It is not some far in the distant past relegated to history books stolen, but outright in your face we, Americans, are occupiers in a foreign land. And a reckoning is coming. Like it or not, this isn't Kansas. And we, white folks, are the aliens here. In other words, you were taught, I was taught, and still we're watching the Hawaiians become more and more empowered. And I look forward to the day they rise again as a sovereign nation. I think it's inevitable.

But hey, fairytales are fun. My kids loved them.. and then they grew up.

[randomq]

So democracy is a fairytale, and an ethnic group rising up to take over a nation against the will of the majority is what you look forward to? I don't know about all that, man. Seems like some kind of sick racist fantasy, like "the south will rise again".