10-21-2013, 08:19 AM
I haven't been advocating SIPs here, though I do like them a lot. Just advocating, at a minimum, that for stick framing methods steel framing is superior to wood framing by most any measure.
DanielP asks: "$ for $, How does old school stick frame compare to steel frame start to finish, quality opinions aside?"
Hard to give a definitive answer. Wood prices seem to flucuate a lot by market forces. Steel has been generally stable. Price stability means if you get your construction loan based on wood framing and a hurricane wipes out a major gulf city you will be likely under budgeted as wood pricing rises with demand.
Go to Home Depot and compare the cost of a metal stud with a wood stud for an easy quick answer.
Light gauge steel is cold rolled in Honolulu. Plan your material well and you will have almost no waste. Most skilled wood framers figure 5% to 10% waste factor into their lumber lists. When you are cutting lumber and tossing scrap on the ground that is money. You can't order a wood F.J. 14'-4-3/4", You can order a steel F.J. that way. Steel joists can also come with penetrations in place for plumbing and electrical runs... as do studs.
"Quality opinions aside?" Geez. Why would you want to disregard quality when building your own home?
I come at my opinion as a master carpenter by trade. I don't even try to keep up with wood pricing any more because I don't use it. My customers have found that using modern materials and methods they can build a superior home for competitive budgets... or they wouldn't follow my advice. Whether it is a few bucks above or below wood costs on any given day is minor stuff compared to the quality of construction and reduced long term costs of maintenance and replacement and tenting.
Most of my clients are on tight budgets. They want the most bang for their buck and don't want to deal with repairs in their retirements.
Perhaps few people remember here twenty years ago when DHHL did a track for native Hawaiians on the north end. The homes were condemned after six months. Crappy wood. One client who did not take my advice did an exposed T&G wood roof deck. The lumber arrived to the site with termites on the load. He sent it back, got another load. When the ceiling was up he and his wife did a beautiful job of staining and finishing the ceiling. Looked great.... for a few weeks. Then the lumber dried out and shrank and he had hundreds of feet of white joints opening up to be meticulously re-stained and finished.
By code framing lumber is supposed to be about 7% moisture content. Can't find that in a local lumber yard.
Are you aware that according to federal statistics the average life of a wood frame home on the Big Island is 33 years? I read that to mean you generally lose 3% per year in depreciation. Who would want to invest their money in something that loses 3% off the top? ANybody out there looking to buy a 30 or 40 year old wood frame home? Not many.
The basic news I have is that better building do not need to cost more. You just have to accept this is the 21st century and be open to different materials and methods. Wood framing is 19th century stuff.
The single largest concern I have is craftsmanship. There are lots of people who call themselves carpenters. Few have had any training. Most seem to think if they can pull the trigger on a nail gun and own a skil saw they are carpenters. The apprenticeship programs are usually four years of training. After the Northridge Earthquake the most common fault I saw was simply lousy workmanship, followed by broken and shattered wood. I've also seen lots of people get their lumber lists estimated and forget the Simpson connectors - they seem to think the connectors a minor items... till they get the bill.
DanielP asks: "$ for $, How does old school stick frame compare to steel frame start to finish, quality opinions aside?"
Hard to give a definitive answer. Wood prices seem to flucuate a lot by market forces. Steel has been generally stable. Price stability means if you get your construction loan based on wood framing and a hurricane wipes out a major gulf city you will be likely under budgeted as wood pricing rises with demand.
Go to Home Depot and compare the cost of a metal stud with a wood stud for an easy quick answer.
Light gauge steel is cold rolled in Honolulu. Plan your material well and you will have almost no waste. Most skilled wood framers figure 5% to 10% waste factor into their lumber lists. When you are cutting lumber and tossing scrap on the ground that is money. You can't order a wood F.J. 14'-4-3/4", You can order a steel F.J. that way. Steel joists can also come with penetrations in place for plumbing and electrical runs... as do studs.
"Quality opinions aside?" Geez. Why would you want to disregard quality when building your own home?
I come at my opinion as a master carpenter by trade. I don't even try to keep up with wood pricing any more because I don't use it. My customers have found that using modern materials and methods they can build a superior home for competitive budgets... or they wouldn't follow my advice. Whether it is a few bucks above or below wood costs on any given day is minor stuff compared to the quality of construction and reduced long term costs of maintenance and replacement and tenting.
Most of my clients are on tight budgets. They want the most bang for their buck and don't want to deal with repairs in their retirements.
Perhaps few people remember here twenty years ago when DHHL did a track for native Hawaiians on the north end. The homes were condemned after six months. Crappy wood. One client who did not take my advice did an exposed T&G wood roof deck. The lumber arrived to the site with termites on the load. He sent it back, got another load. When the ceiling was up he and his wife did a beautiful job of staining and finishing the ceiling. Looked great.... for a few weeks. Then the lumber dried out and shrank and he had hundreds of feet of white joints opening up to be meticulously re-stained and finished.
By code framing lumber is supposed to be about 7% moisture content. Can't find that in a local lumber yard.
Are you aware that according to federal statistics the average life of a wood frame home on the Big Island is 33 years? I read that to mean you generally lose 3% per year in depreciation. Who would want to invest their money in something that loses 3% off the top? ANybody out there looking to buy a 30 or 40 year old wood frame home? Not many.
The basic news I have is that better building do not need to cost more. You just have to accept this is the 21st century and be open to different materials and methods. Wood framing is 19th century stuff.
The single largest concern I have is craftsmanship. There are lots of people who call themselves carpenters. Few have had any training. Most seem to think if they can pull the trigger on a nail gun and own a skil saw they are carpenters. The apprenticeship programs are usually four years of training. After the Northridge Earthquake the most common fault I saw was simply lousy workmanship, followed by broken and shattered wood. I've also seen lots of people get their lumber lists estimated and forget the Simpson connectors - they seem to think the connectors a minor items... till they get the bill.
Assume the best and ask questions.
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