04-02-2020, 06:53 AM
knieft
Again, I'm not sure this is the best venue for this discussion but am willing to try, again.
Statistics as a whole aren't meaningless. Statistics divorced from the underlying reality can be. Being a data analyst you become very wary of believing your numbers more than the facts can support.
You've read your Baudrillard right? "The map is not the territory." Focusing on the representation and not the reality can lead to some particularly bad outcomes ("the desert of the real"), part of which includes minimizing human experience for numerical summaries (Given your chops I tend to believe you have similar academic touchstones, but this might not be true of course)
http://publish.uwo.ca/~dmann/baudrillard1.htm
Or to put it another way -
"A billion people died on the news tonight
But not so many cried at the terrible sight
Well mama said
It's just make believe
You can't believe everything you see
So baby close your eyes to the lullabies
On the news tonight"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfLMNuvqJMo
the Hawaii state death total is estimated at 372. Adjusting for population that would mean 53 deaths on the big island. About a dozen in Puna.
Again, to reach these low numbers people need to believe it can be MUCH worse and take appropriate actions. If it's only going to be a dozen people then what the hell - time to take the keiki to that beach party with tutu! Again, every public health expert wants to be wrong in their (over)estimates - but the public needs to believe they could be right for this to happen. "This statement is a lie"-type cosmic f#cking irony in the extreme.
I'd say those possible dozen preventable deaths in Puna are somebody's auntie, parent, or child, but you don't seem to be swayed by that in any way. Why is this?
Begrudgingly? Yeah, I guess that's accurate. Am I supposed to relish it? And then I wouldn't be cold and heartless?
I have spent MANY hours trying to convince people to give a ****, you included. Whatever resistance you have to all this makes no sense to me nor to the facts at hand IMHO. Again, whether this is from a principled "why should I do what others tell me" or "it's just the flu bro" or "what's several-hundred thousand deaths to me or the world" I don't know. At the end of the day it's all sounds like the the same nonsense dismissal B.S. to me.
Apparently, many thousands of people dying in China, then Iran, then Italy, and New York doesn't phase very many of us - we fundamentally cannot see us in them and understand the common humanity in what is happening. Empathy? Willingness, even eagerness, to help? Anyone?
you declare money has no value.
No, it has no inherent value. This is always the lesson learned when a country goes through an massive economic crisis. Disagree? I'll bet you a trillion (Zimbabwe) dollars on this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1X-Zimbabwe-100...3374309099
You appear to be dismissing the economic consequences out of hand.
Not dismissing, just putting in its place. Providing people with food, shelter, and healthcare isn't a matter of enough money, it's a matter of enough concern. Given infinite deficit spending and infinite printing presses, there is no lack of funds, just a lack of care for those who most need it.
Here's Alan Greenspan (you know that Fed Chairman guy) almost a decade ago explaining this. How is this not clear? The U.S. can pay any debt because it can always print money. What do you think is happening right now?
https://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/e...ney-supply
What else were the lessons of FDR's social programs of the Great Depression? You can feed, house, and employee as many people as you care to. There is not a lack of calories, trees & land, or work to be done.
but that is just proof that I lack empathy and am thus the reason there are unfed, uneducated, and homeless people.
It's sounds like you're over-personalizing this? I wasn't saying you are ringing up the till and laughing, I was saying that those who say such issues can't be addressed, are doing so. Maybe this flying pig went over some heads?
Hopefully you can just declare COVID-19 deaths aren't part of the human experience and we would all be set.
No idea what this means other than it appears to run counter to literally everything I've been saying - like pay attention and care about what is happening!
I had never heard the T or A bit.
Yeah, looks like a more recent addition - assertive vs turbulent
https://www.16personalities.com/articles...-turbulent
Are you talking about flattening the curve here, or something grander?
Flattening the curve is the immediate part - people recognizing we aren't animals, we live in a society, and our actions have consequences on everyone else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E
But many other things are also up in the air currently as we're living through a transformative event. What the world looks like afterwards will not be the same as it looked before so it's good to start thinking about what can be tossed into the dustbin of history and what positive changes can be made personally, economically, culturally, & socially.
Sounds grandiose? Megalomaniacal? Perhaps, but at least I'm in good company.
https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2020/03/30/...a-pandemic
David Kessler - The world we know a month ago, is actually gone forever... Just like we say do you remember what airports we're like before 9/11 ... we'll say do you remember the world before the pandemic? ...
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/video-a...were-never
Governor Cuomo - "As a society, beyond just this immediate situation, we should start looking forward to understand how this experience is going to change us, or how it should change us, because this is going to be transformative. It is going to be transformative on a personal basis, on a social basis, on a systems basis. We're never going to be the same again. We're not going to forget what happened here.
The fear that we have, the anxiety that we have, that's not just going to go away. When do we get back to normal? I don't think we get back to normal. I think we get back, or we get to a new normal. Right? Like we're seeing in so many facets of society right now. So we will be at a different place.
Our challenge is to make sure that transformation and that change is positive and not negative. Let's make sure we're taking the positive lesson and not the negative lesson."
tl;dr? IDK - If God is willing and da creek don't rise? (running out of natural disaster / Spike Lee references
Again, I'm not sure this is the best venue for this discussion but am willing to try, again.
Statistics as a whole aren't meaningless. Statistics divorced from the underlying reality can be. Being a data analyst you become very wary of believing your numbers more than the facts can support.
You've read your Baudrillard right? "The map is not the territory." Focusing on the representation and not the reality can lead to some particularly bad outcomes ("the desert of the real"), part of which includes minimizing human experience for numerical summaries (Given your chops I tend to believe you have similar academic touchstones, but this might not be true of course)
http://publish.uwo.ca/~dmann/baudrillard1.htm
Or to put it another way -
"A billion people died on the news tonight
But not so many cried at the terrible sight
Well mama said
It's just make believe
You can't believe everything you see
So baby close your eyes to the lullabies
On the news tonight"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfLMNuvqJMo
the Hawaii state death total is estimated at 372. Adjusting for population that would mean 53 deaths on the big island. About a dozen in Puna.
Again, to reach these low numbers people need to believe it can be MUCH worse and take appropriate actions. If it's only going to be a dozen people then what the hell - time to take the keiki to that beach party with tutu! Again, every public health expert wants to be wrong in their (over)estimates - but the public needs to believe they could be right for this to happen. "This statement is a lie"-type cosmic f#cking irony in the extreme.
I'd say those possible dozen preventable deaths in Puna are somebody's auntie, parent, or child, but you don't seem to be swayed by that in any way. Why is this?
Begrudgingly? Yeah, I guess that's accurate. Am I supposed to relish it? And then I wouldn't be cold and heartless?
I have spent MANY hours trying to convince people to give a ****, you included. Whatever resistance you have to all this makes no sense to me nor to the facts at hand IMHO. Again, whether this is from a principled "why should I do what others tell me" or "it's just the flu bro" or "what's several-hundred thousand deaths to me or the world" I don't know. At the end of the day it's all sounds like the the same nonsense dismissal B.S. to me.
Apparently, many thousands of people dying in China, then Iran, then Italy, and New York doesn't phase very many of us - we fundamentally cannot see us in them and understand the common humanity in what is happening. Empathy? Willingness, even eagerness, to help? Anyone?
you declare money has no value.
No, it has no inherent value. This is always the lesson learned when a country goes through an massive economic crisis. Disagree? I'll bet you a trillion (Zimbabwe) dollars on this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1X-Zimbabwe-100...3374309099
You appear to be dismissing the economic consequences out of hand.
Not dismissing, just putting in its place. Providing people with food, shelter, and healthcare isn't a matter of enough money, it's a matter of enough concern. Given infinite deficit spending and infinite printing presses, there is no lack of funds, just a lack of care for those who most need it.
Here's Alan Greenspan (you know that Fed Chairman guy) almost a decade ago explaining this. How is this not clear? The U.S. can pay any debt because it can always print money. What do you think is happening right now?
https://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/e...ney-supply
What else were the lessons of FDR's social programs of the Great Depression? You can feed, house, and employee as many people as you care to. There is not a lack of calories, trees & land, or work to be done.
but that is just proof that I lack empathy and am thus the reason there are unfed, uneducated, and homeless people.
It's sounds like you're over-personalizing this? I wasn't saying you are ringing up the till and laughing, I was saying that those who say such issues can't be addressed, are doing so. Maybe this flying pig went over some heads?
Hopefully you can just declare COVID-19 deaths aren't part of the human experience and we would all be set.
No idea what this means other than it appears to run counter to literally everything I've been saying - like pay attention and care about what is happening!
I had never heard the T or A bit.
Yeah, looks like a more recent addition - assertive vs turbulent
https://www.16personalities.com/articles...-turbulent
Are you talking about flattening the curve here, or something grander?
Flattening the curve is the immediate part - people recognizing we aren't animals, we live in a society, and our actions have consequences on everyone else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx1Cpxpx1E
But many other things are also up in the air currently as we're living through a transformative event. What the world looks like afterwards will not be the same as it looked before so it's good to start thinking about what can be tossed into the dustbin of history and what positive changes can be made personally, economically, culturally, & socially.
Sounds grandiose? Megalomaniacal? Perhaps, but at least I'm in good company.
https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2020/03/30/...a-pandemic
David Kessler - The world we know a month ago, is actually gone forever... Just like we say do you remember what airports we're like before 9/11 ... we'll say do you remember the world before the pandemic? ...
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/video-a...were-never
Governor Cuomo - "As a society, beyond just this immediate situation, we should start looking forward to understand how this experience is going to change us, or how it should change us, because this is going to be transformative. It is going to be transformative on a personal basis, on a social basis, on a systems basis. We're never going to be the same again. We're not going to forget what happened here.
The fear that we have, the anxiety that we have, that's not just going to go away. When do we get back to normal? I don't think we get back to normal. I think we get back, or we get to a new normal. Right? Like we're seeing in so many facets of society right now. So we will be at a different place.
Our challenge is to make sure that transformation and that change is positive and not negative. Let's make sure we're taking the positive lesson and not the negative lesson."
tl;dr? IDK - If God is willing and da creek don't rise? (running out of natural disaster / Spike Lee references