01-29-2009, 06:34 AM
Questions for KathyH &/or others who may know the answers, along with a new comment or two:
Regarding my comments "if a dog (of whatever breed) is trespassing onto peoples' property and attacking livestock &/or presenting a clear and present danger to children, then it sure seems to me like it would be well within legal right and reasonable conscience to deal with such a dog --quietly, permanently, and without a bunch of fuss-- as feral and a threat" and "it seems to me that parents, farmers, and property owners also need to be responsible in those roles: if a dangerous dog is running loose and trespassing onto private property to attack livestock and menace children then it would be irresponsible, imho, to take no effective action to eliminate such feral marauders"
...and with respect to KathyH's observation "Not so under Hawai'i law. It is currently illegal to kill a pet (misdemeanor, I think). It is legal to trap a pet and turn it over to the Humane Society. It is not legal to kill ferals either. Nor can the definition of feral be applied to an owned animal. Wild and vicious are not the same"
-does anyone have available to share the specific text passage(s) of Hawaii's statute(s) in law regarding this matter...or a link to such?
Seems to me in a situation where life and limb are in peril, especially if within one's own property lines, then acting on reasonable cause in self-defense and/or defense of family and property (livestock, poultry, and pets falling under "property" in law) would be a very different matter than (quite inappropriately) just unilaterally declaring hunting season on other peoples' dogs and going after them when they are within their owners property lines and not offering offense.
Likewise, regarding the definition of "pet" versus "feral," seems to me that a menacing dog (whether a pomeranian or pit bull) ceases to be a pet and becomes feral the moment a person feels in fear for their life or the life of the child. If an animal is trespassing onto private property to attack livestock or poultry --especially if its specific identity is in question for whatever reasons (rain, darkness, because the animal itself is not observed but the ripped udders and dead chickens it leaves behind are evidence of its activity)-- then contextually it seems like the animal is by definition feral by reason of marauding activity.
I'd agree that "wild" and "vicious" are not the same and would not advocate the elimination of wild animals not doing any harm. Vicious behavior, however, whether evidenced by wild (however one might define the term) animals or owned animals (pets, livestock, service animals) cannot be tolerated on one's own property when such animals are trespassing and bringing the nuisance.
If the law really is so flawed as to currently prevent homeowners and farmers from taking legal action to defend themselves, their families, and their property from marauding vicious dogs then the law needs to be changed. Laws which turn responsible citizens acting reasonably into law-breakers are flawed laws which clearly and urgently need changing. Making such a change in law if called for by the people would be a much more constructive use of time for our elected representatives than enacting yet more restrictive nanny-state nonsense for which there is neither funding nor enforcement.
Beyond the haggling of lawyers over definitions and wording of laws (which has its place yet is seldom pleasant or inexpensive to experience firsthand), it seems to me when there is a genuine sense of community present then with it comes shared norms as to what is and is not acceptable in the local culture.
Laws are part of that process, as conscious articulations of the social contract, but laws are only part. If there are bad elements in a community and the community tolerates them poisoning the environment for everyone with fear and intimidation, then whose responsibility is that? Laws will not keep decent members of a community safe if those laws are flawed, or good but disregarded and unenforced.
Likewise, flawed laws will not prevent good, self-reliant, responsible citizens of a community from taking action when the system is failing to do so. As witness dogs which rip udders and kill lambs developing a terminally bad stomach-ache when they venture into the barnyard under cover of darkness to wreak yet more mayhem and happen upon tainted hamburger that has somehow fallen out of a trash can, or when vicious dogs which present a clear and present danger to children simply disappear during thunderstorms, as if vaporized by lightning. A community which makes technical criminals of good responsible citizens while allowing genuine criminal thugs to intimidate and terrorize others is a community which needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.
It is easy for thugs to deliberately cause fear in good people if the community does not sort out its acceptable norms and stand together in solidarity. When a community pulls together and stands together then the thugs become those stepping carefully, and rightly so! Ultimately, the outcome of genuinely coming together in community is that people seek to not become a problem in the first place -and raise their children likewise. Yes, there are many aspects to this process from good quality education and after-school activities for youth to substance abuse treatment, job development, and so on ...and all this as well flows from the values and shared norms of a community.
If I ever find a dog of mine is becoming a liability then nobody else will need to complain to the police or Humane Society or whatever, because I will be putting the dog down, myself, before it reaches that point. My kids would do exactly the same because that is how they have been raised. We accept responsibility for our outcomes with our dogs and seek to be good neighbors. We expect the same of others and will not accept being intimidated in our home and on our property by either vicious dogs or their owners. Though we all live together on a big island no one person and no one family is an island unto itself, so how that story ends for anyone --in any community-- depends on the quality of the community and the willingness of good people to find their courage and stand together in solidarity.
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A pleasant slideshow: http://www.thejoymovie.com
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Astonishing skill! This archer is a real-life Legolas and then some!
http://geekologie.com/2013/11/real-life-...rs-anc.php
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Astonishing skill! This archer is a real-life Legolas and then some!
http://geekologie.com/2013/11/real-life-...rs-anc.php
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