QUESTIONS ABOUT THE HPP PARK

[leilanidude]

6) David Watumull sets aside several 20-acre Hawaiian Paradise Park parcels, which his company retains ownership of. Of these parcels, it was thought that some could be set aside for future recreational and educational purposes.
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Patricia, that was from your other thread, "History as promised"

They were not 1 acre lots that were consolidated, which is the point I was trying to question. It is a single lot. Was the Watamull family ever paying the road fee? If so, how much were they paying? I would bet they paid the same as any other lot owner.

[kalakoa]

why the same rules for Hawaiian Paradise Park residents do not apply to the County.

Because County makes/enforces/decides the rules. Among other examples: Nanavale and Ainaloa require a minimum 1-acre lot size, but "somehow" they were subdivided (hint: County approved the plats) into much smaller lots anyway.

I believe County owns lots in other subdivisions. They probably don't pay fees there, either.

It might seem more fair to you that they be considered & assessed 20 road fees

Nanavale road fees are based on the original lot size regardless of any future consolidation.

department of water requires the road to be that width to install a water main

This suggests that no water main is possible in some subdivisions, or even some existing County roads (eg, Post Office Road in Pahoa).

These "faux residential" subdivisions are my all-time favorite thing about Hawaii County. The problem is having enough patience to see how it all turns out.

[Patricia]

Patricia,
Each of the 20 acre HPP parcels were always designated as one lot, one TMK.  They were not consolidated. It might seem more fair to you that they be considered & assessed 20 road fees, but legally that is not the case.

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Aloha

Thank you. I will have to research that a little more. But I think the issue here, similar to confusing HPP with HPPOA, is that the 20 acre parcels are not lots. The definition of lots are 1 acre (or less). Parcels (and there are several of these in HPP) consist of a set aside 20 acres (or more). 

Also, businesses in HPP are assessed larger road maintenance fees depending on the amount of traffic they generate on Hawaiian Paradise Park roads. I imagine a multi-million dollar park would generate a lot of excess traffic.

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It looks like there was a discussion, regarding private roads in Hawaiian Paradise Park, and how they are (should be paid for) that was posted on Punaweb in 2009. At that time, someone stated the Malamalama Waldorf school, which has a leasehold on one of the 20 acre parcels, was being charged $50/student for Hawaiian Paradise Park road maintenance fees (that would have added up to a lot more than the typical road fee in 2009).

Perhaps that would be a fair road assessment. Charge the County a yearly, one time $50 road assessment fee for every park patron. 

If a small non-profit is going to be assessed road maintenance fees, it is only fair the County should be as well.

[Patricia]

why the same rules for Hawaiian Paradise Park residents do not apply to the County.

Because County makes/enforces/decides the rules. Among other examples: Nanavale and Ainaloa require a minimum 1-acre lot size, but "somehow" they were subdivided (hint: County approved the plats) into much smaller lots anyway.

I believe County owns lots in other subdivisions. They probably don't pay fees there, either.

It might seem more fair to you that they be considered & assessed 20 road fees

Nanavale road fees are based on the original lot size regardless of any future consolidation.

department of water requires the road to be that width to install a water main

This suggests that no water main is possible in some subdivisions, or even some existing County roads (eg, Post Office Road in Pahoa).

These "faux residential" subdivisions are my all-time favorite thing about Hawaii County. The problem is having enough patience to see how it all turns out.

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Aloha. Thank you for sharing. I enjoyed the "faux residential" reference.

My concerns regarding the County is they have been able to "get away with" a lot in the past almost 80 years. And it is disappointing that few, in all this time, even now, seem willing to hold the County responsible for the bad decisions they have made or the flat-out disregard they hold for some of their residents and employees. This is wrong. The County gives nothing to anyone for free. Why should the County expect, demand, and be allowed to take?

Hawaiian Paradise Park Owners and others in "faux residential" communittees in Puna have been funding the County and state millions of dollars every year through the collection of their taxes. And what do they get for it? Very little. But when they do get something, like a County park, everyone thinks how "wonderful" with few considering the added costs and burdens to the community- none of which the County is willing, or so far, has offered to pay for. 

[Obie]

Can you read and comprehend the legal description?

Legal Information
LOT 31 20.00 AC BLK 5 MAP 57 LCAPP 1053
Land Area (acres)
20.0000
Land Area (approximate sq ft)
871,200

[Patricia]

Can you read and comprehend the legal description?

Legal Information
LOT 31 20.00 AC BLK 5 MAP 57 LCAPP 1053
Land Area (acres)
20.0000
Land Area (approximate sq ft)
871,200

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Aloha.

Yes I can. Thank you. I am still of the opinion (I am entitled to an opinion) that the designation (1 acre) for a lot is not the same as a parcel for the purpose of assessimg road maintenance fees. However, there are other, still fair and equitable means by which road assessments could be calculated for the county park. Please refer to one of my earlier replies, regarding Malamalama Waldorf school.

[Moderator 2]

with few considering the added costs and burdens to the community- none of which the County is willing, or so far, has offered to pay for. 

I pay HPP road fees.
I pay county real estate taxes.
I pay federal taxes.

I don’t think I could break down if I’d pay more, or less if the county paid or didn’t pay for county park road fees. If the county paid road fees don’t you think they’d just raise your taxes to cover their increased expenses? I don’t believe HPP has ever not increased road maintenance by less than the maximum allotted 10%?  

Wouldn’t we simply end up robbing Peter to pay Paul?

[Patricia]

with few considering the added costs and burdens to the community- none of which the County is willing, or so far, has offered to pay for. 

I pay HPP road fees.
I pay county real estate taxes.
I pay federal taxes.

I don’t think I could break down if I’d pay more, or less if the county paid or didn’t pay for county park road fees. If the county paid road fees don’t you think they’d just raise your taxes to cover their increased expenses? I don’t believe HPP has ever not increased road maintenance by less than the maximum allotted 10%?  

Robbing Peter to pay Paul.  

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Aloha.

You are correct. In some way Hawaiian Paradise Park owners would be contributing to cover the County's road fees. However, others would contribute too. The County collects taxes from more than just Hawaiian Paradise Park Owners. The County also collects money from all Hawaii Island residents and property owners,. In addition, the County receives money from the state, the feds, tourism, grants, and donors.

Hawaiian Paradise Park residents will be stuck with additional costs, regardless. But it will be greatly defrayed if the County coughs up their share of road maintenance fees. And they are obligated to. As per the Hawaii courts. 

[Obie]

The County's road fee is $435.00.

[Moderator 2]

But it will be greatly defrayed 

How much do you think it would be per person?  
If HPP raises the road fee by 10% again next year (and the year after, and after) would we save anything?