Discoveries using the telescopes on Mauna Kea

[TomK]

I couldn't agree more, dan_c. Reading many comments in various media sources today made me feel really depressed. We may be on the verge of discovering life elsewhere but it's all politics, or if it comes to astronomy and space, flat earth nonsense and it's NASA photoshopping things (why you would photoshop a spectrum is beyond me). I also think the amount of sci-fi movies and TV shows have desensitized people over the last few decades and finding a biosignature of life is no big deal. It's one reason I'm not a big fan of sci-fi.

In the long press briefing I mentioned earlier:

https://youtu.be/y1u-jlf_Olo

they do discuss the possibility of putting an instrument on the Rocket Lab probe, but it'll have to have a mass of 3 KG or less (around 6 lb), so that'll be a challenge. But this will definitely end up with probes being sent to Venus in the near future. Fortunately, it's relatively nearby, so travel time to the planet will shorten any mission.

In the meantime, one or two of the observatories on Mauna Kea are already planning to start searching for the infrared signatures of phosphine. There's good and bad news about this. The good news is that the infrared telescope will provide a much higher spatial resolution that the JCMT or ALMA, the bad news is we don't expect the IR features to be very weak and they tend to be in a very tough part of the infrared spectrum for ground-based observations, so getting a believable detection may be very difficult.

[TomK]

PS. I think this is a really good video about the discovery. I just wish they gave the JCMT a bit more credit rather than just mentioning it in passing. For those that get bored easily, it's only 17 minutes long.

https://youtu.be/CNLsgd_NzWk

[kalianna]

I've waited years for someone else to broach this question and no one has, so I will. Please do not interpret the question as hostile, but I do think it warrants being addressed and may be why there is an apparent lack of excitement about the microbes on Venus. So here goes:

We are in the throes of a pandemic and climate change is becoming increasingly dramatic and destructive. In light of the demands for medical and ecological research funding (among others), how does funding astronomical research address the needs of our planet?

Again, this is an informational question, not a challenge.

[TomK]

Just some initial thoughts and in no particular order and certainly not complete:

1) Venus was the trigger that made us understand the greenhouse effect;

2) Astronomy has always attracted people into science. Most never become astronomers but move into other scientific fields and engineering;

3) More local, the observatories on Mauna Kea provide funding for students to become interested in STEM;

4) A fundamental part of being human is to explore, we wouldn't be in Hawaii if we didn't.;

5) Astrophysics has led to several techniques in medicine including CAT scans;

6) As above and same as point (2), many in medical technology moved into that field because their interest in science was inspired by astronomy;

7) How would defunding astronomy help with the pandemic? (details, please);

8) Have you ever tried to find out how small the astronomy budget is compared to health care and the military?;

9) You'll find the MKOs have made massive efforts to help the local community by delivering food and other services without any cost to anyone on the island;

10) I guess some people just don't want to try and find out how our universe works and how we came to be.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

In light of the demands for medical and ecological research funding (among others), how does funding astronomical research address the needs of our planet?

In addition to TomK's extensive examples, I would only add that in national emergencies while some resources are diverted, other unrelated areas of production and research continue.  Take WWII for example.  Gasoline, butter, rubber, etc were prioritized for the war effort and rationed to the public.  As was vehicle and airplane production.  But universities remained open, movies were made, and life went on in many other ways.  There's a good description of Hawaii during this time period in Gavin Dawes book The Shoals Of Time.
Although COVID-19 and climate research should be top priorities, it's important to also take a longer view.  For example, in 2018  the US budget was cut for pandemic monitoring and preparedness as someone deemed it irrelevant and unnecessary.  Where we be now in the COVID-19 timeline if we were as prepared in 2020 as we were in 2016?  

We don't yet know what we'll find on Venus or in its atmosphere, but as TomK noted in his first example "1) Venus was the trigger that made us understand the greenhouse effect".  Is there life on or above Venus?  Did it develop concurrently with life on Earth?  Or did Russian and American probes introduce it with early spacecraft?  If they did, have Earth life forms survived, evolved, and adapted to conditions on Venus?
Given our state of climate change, life on another planet might prove quite useful for the future of life on Earth.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

kalianna,
Here’s more on how NASA, and space research in general are helping address issues created by the pandemic:

During a time of isolation worldwide, the COVID-19 Challenge brought people of many backgrounds together to solve problems — over 15,000 participants from 150 countries. They used Earth observation data from NASA and its partner space agencies in creative ways, showing how satellite information can aid in the understanding of the COVID-19 outbreak on both global and local scales. They also explored themes such as the economic and psychological consequences of the pandemic and their impact on society.

What is your risk of encountering the novel coronavirus based on your location? While it’s impossible to know exactly, a group of four friends in Chile wanted to make an app to help people answer this complicated question based on available data.

This team’s name as well as the concept is an app called Panal that people could use to approximate their risk of coming into contact with a COVID-19 patient given their location, and data about that place. It incorporates data from six different sources, including local government health information and satellite data on temperature and humidity. 
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-space-...innovation

[kalianna]

Thanks for some interesting food for thought.  I've also been pursuing this.  I tried to research the annual dollar amount of astronomical research and quickly gave up on that.  The most interesting thing I saw was that Kodak film came about as a result of early attempts to photograph the sun.  But from the information that I've seen so far, it seems that most of the humanly/earthly benefits have come about as a by-product of space exploration rather than its aim.  So maybe the question should be:  How does the quest to learn our place in the universe benefit human kind?  Or is it just curiosity?

[TomK]

Let's try to get this back on topic. The Mauna Kea telescopes have made some of the most incredible discovories about our universe, the place we live in, by pouring money into the Big Island economy and teaching, training and encourgaing local students to study STEM. The observatories employ roughly 50% of their workforce from locals and these are well-payed jobs in comparison to to what else is available on the island. One or two people calaim that these jobs are mostly janitors and cleaners, but this is untrue. Most of the positions are elecrtonic, electrical and mechanical techs and several engineers. There are also local astronomers but this is very much at the lower end of positions at the observatories because nearly all people that work at the observatoiries are not astronomers. And then think of all the local companies that contract with the observatories in order to support their operations. Hundreds of local people are involved in that effort and their wages include money coming into the island from the telescopes.

As for you saying that the benifits of astronomy are a by-product of the field, then maybe you are starting to understand the importance astronomy has. I tried to explain this earlier. I also ask why target astronomy? What good does oceanography do for us? How about geologists studying volcanology on the island? Surely they can give up their positions as well to help with the pandemic? Kilauea and Mauna Loa are pretty quiet right now, so why not target them?

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Kalianna - this is not related to Puna or Hawaii but might explain why the human race is so interested in astronomy and why I think people on the island should be proud of their part in exploring the universe.

https://youtu.be/o8GA2w-qrcg

https://youtu.be/uA5XuOIilYc

https://youtu.be/wupToqz1e2g

https://youtu.be/iDjwF_-ydcM

I am proud to be a tiny part of our exploration of the universe and trying to understand our place in it. You may have another opinion of course.

[kalianna]

I agree that the telescopes on Mauna Kea have provided many jobs and learning experiences and I'm not advocating stopping any scientific endeavors to focus more on the pandemic. And it was your earlier post TomK, that prompted me to look around some more, so thanks for that.

In terms of your questions, I think that oceanography is necessary to predict tidal changes, coral health, marine life, etc. that affects this island and volcanology is necessary in light of the fact that we're living on an active volcano and it seems wise to keep an eye on her. The difference I see in what the telescopes are doing here is that they are looking and exploring. Not saying that's bad, but should we be exploring other worlds while we're imploding on this one?

[randomq]

As shitty as things seem, the overall standard of living on this planet is as high as it has ever been, aside from Covid setbacks. It's easy to get caught up in the negativity of the moment, but I think our island will be better served looking forward. Astronomy has a miniscule budget compared to government, agriculture, tourism, healthcare, etc. The money also comes here from the mainland, a net benefit to us.