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Interesting take, Kelena. When I think about the definition of "religion", a Western, legalistic version was not what came to mind. (But it makes sense it would be your take.) I'm not arguing whether Buddhism is or isn't a religion. As someone exposed to two cultures for over 30 years, I've concluded that I don't know what the hell "religion" means anymore. Different cultures are filtering different concepts through different filters and assigning words to concepts that never completely equate. We could split linguistic hairs forever and never get anywhere. I'd rather let each person decide for himself/herself because that's what folks are going to do anyway.
Okay...just for fun let's split hairs ;-) The Japanese word for "religion" (dictionary definition) is "shukyo". But to further complicate matters, when you break down the meanings of its 2 kanji characters, "shu" means "denomination" or "essence" or "origin" or "sect". Take your pick. "Kyo" means "doctrine", "faith" or "teach". Again, take your pick. When you add those concepts together, does it mean "religion" as defined through our Western, Aristotelian, legalistic filters? Probably not. But its the closest matching concept they have.
Keep in mind that Japanese Buddhism was heavily influenced by Shinto, a belief system that animated the phenomenal world with spirits that inhabit rocks, rivers, trees, waterfalls, and anything else imaginable in nature. (Much like Hawaiian spirituality.) In addition to nature worship, they also practiced ancestral worship (and of course Emperor worship). Buddhism was introduced to Japan in the 6th century; By the 8th Century the Japanese were already building Shinto Shrines and Buddhist Temples within the same complexes, and in ensuing centuries, the two religions gradually created a symbiotic relationship. Shinto was fused with Buddhism over the years; and Buddhism, a polytheistic religion itself, was happy to welcome more spirits into the Buddhist fold. So. Is the nature-worshiping-Shinto-Buddhism amalgamation a religion? I have no idea! What I do know is that it's totally different than the Judeo-Christian view of religion that I was raised to believe. (Full-disclosure: I have no religious affiliation.)
So I'll let each person decide for himself or herself what "religion" means.
This conversation would've been so much more fun over that bottle of wine, though. :-)
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
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I had to show this thread to my wife, but I would rather not post what she said! [  ][ ][ ] Out of curiosity I did some research online and found the following : "Buddhism (Pali/Sanskrit: #2348;#2380;#2342;#2381;#2343; #2343;#2352;#2381;#2350; Bauddha Dharma) is a religion and philosophy encompassing a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices, largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as the Buddha (P#257;li/Sanskrit "the awakened one")." One thing is for sure, anyone believing it is not a religion should go to Malaysia, Thailand and Taiwan (other countries too, but these are the ones I went to) to see what the people do in the Buddhist temples. Worship and pray!
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I went to numerous Buddhist temples in Kyoto and Nara. (As mentioned, influenced heavily by Shintoism.)
I was brought up in a church that was essentially Hindu, but somewhat Westernized, so I have been exposed to Eastern Philosophy my whole life since I was 4or 5 years old. I attended many types of Christian services, but always as a guest/outsider. Had lots of friends try to convert me.
Even with this background, when I got to university and took courses in the subjects, there was a lot of variation from what I had been taught. The Mysticism course I took that focused heavily on the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita had a very different feel than the Indian Philosophy course I took from a renowned Sanscrit scholar, who focused more on the system of Nyaya logic/epistmology and the relevant sutras. The former was devotional, the latter course had no focus on a deity whatsoever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyaya (gives an idea of the complexity).
These ancient philosophies have far more variations than most Westerners understand, and different countries, cultures, and social classes have different traditions and practices.
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All true, but to get back to the question, one thing I really like about Hilo and environs is that you realize what it means to be halfway between mainland America and Japan. There is a pronounced Japanese influence and that is reflected in the choice of statuary and, to an extent, in architecture.
But to deviate from the question again, I think that adherents to the Abrahamic religions tend to think that Buddhists "worship Buddha" and that just isn't so. Oddly, although humans do not worship the Buddha, BUNNIES DO!
Bunny Buddha-worshipping has been well documented. Please see photo here: https://picasaweb.google.com/BennyBurris...authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCMvRybHJvOOHxgE&feat=directlink
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelena
But to deviate from the question again, I think that adherents to the Abrahamic religions tend to think that Buddhists "worship Buddha" and that just isn't so.
I start with a DISCLAIMER: I don't know much about Buddhism. In fact, I don't know much about any religion, but I truly believe anyone should be able to believe in any religion they want to.
Based on what I have seen during my travels in the countries I previously mentioned (I forgot to mention Japan) people there do worship Buddhas. Please note the "plural" since there are many Buddhas in those temples, representing anything from "A" to "Z". My wife even took me to the Buddha statue that represents the month/year/sign of my birth date.
Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,PB,ABR,CRB,CM,FHS
888.819.9669
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Not much worshiping going on in Japan these days. Most Japanese don't take religion seriously anymore, although they like to keep the traditions alive. (New Year's, baptisms, weddings, etc.) Even more interesting is that the Japanese also love to celebrate Christmas--in a commercial secular way of course. And over the years, it's also become fashionable in Japan to get married in a Christian church, even though neither the bride nor groom are Christian. (Less than 3% of Japanese are Christian.) Why would they get married in a Christian church? Well, it's "cool" because that's how Westerners do it, and somehow they got the crazy idea that Westerners are "cool". What this means is that Japan is one of those rare secular countries that's even managed to secularize "religion".
The simplest way I can characterize the difference in religious attitudes, is that while Westerners worship a deity, Japanese worship beauty. If you don't believe me, go check out a Zen garden: Japanese nature-inspired aestheticism at its best.
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
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My Comparative Religions professor at the University of Texas described Buddhism as a religion, although he did say that some versions of it tend to be more philosophical in nature. Having spent a lot of time in Thailand, I can tell you that the version practiced there is indeed a full-on religion with deeply spiritual elements. Many of my Thai friends believe that Buddha's spirit literally remains with them, guiding their lives. It must work for them because they are some of the most friendly, honest, and kind people I have had the pleasure to encounter.
I think that people take to religion according to their own proclivities. If people want "personal" connection, they will find it in any religion. Any religion with the power to hold the loyalty of hundreds of millions of people must have something to attract all sorts of personalities. The example I used about Hinduism (from which Buddhism is an offshoot) was meant to show that you will find mystics, devotees and also those of strictly logical persuasion, who all find a niche.
I found a simple explanation from a Buddhist site that goes over the "worship" question for people with a more Christian sense of the term.
http://www.buddhanet.net/ans6.htm
quote:
If the Buddha is not a god, then why do people worship him?
There are different types of worship. When someone worships a god, they praise him or her, making offerings and ask for favours, believing that the god will hear their praise, receive their offerings and answer their prayers. Buddhists do not indulge in this kind of worship. The other kind of worship is when we show respect to someone or something we admire. When a teacher walks into a room we stand up, when we meet a dignitary we shake hands,when the national anthem is played we salute. These are all gestures of respect and worship and indicate our admiration for persons and things. This is the type of worship Buddhist practise.
A statue of the Buddha with its hands rested gently in its lap and its compassionate smile reminds us to strive to develop peace and love within ourselves. The perfume of incense reminds us of the pervading influence of virtue, the lamp reminds us of light of knowledge and the flowers which soon fade and die, reminds us of impermanence. When we bow, we express our gratitude to the Buddha for what his teachings have given us. This is the nature of Buddhist worship.
While I'm sure there are Buddhists who have other spiritual beliefs such as Jerry's Thai friends, I think this covers the basic confusion about the meaning of worship for classic Buddhism.
"A statue of the Buddha with its hands rested gently in its lap and its compassionate smile reminds us to strive to develop peace and love within ourselves."
yes, and that is why I will always have a Buddha statue in my garden. It actually has the power to change my state of mind when my eyes rest on it.
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I think of Buddhism as a religion only because it incorporates manifestations (see: "Bodhisattva"), rite and prayer. But as an atheist (my definiton as one who does not believe in a deity, deities or "creator"), Buddhism is the only religion that makes sense to me. I love the notion of referring to "prayer" or "worship" as "practice." This is an example of Buddhist teaching that sits well with me. Years ago I read a very good book called "Buddhism: Plain and Simple" written for westerners. I found it quite helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Plain-Sim..._1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315193212&sr=8-1 There is much to be said about living in the here and now.
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Where it seems like a religion to me is that crazy brainwashing of children and forcing them to be monks or telling them they are the reincarnation of somebody. There are others who are atheists that insist it is a philosophy. Guess it depends on who is defining it. Lots of value as a philosophy. Crazy and oppressive as a religion. And probably some craziness as a philosophy as well as some value on a population level as a religion, at least as compared to some other religions. Although I think we'd all be better off without any religions.
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