No more welfare checks

[Guest]

The civil war 1861-1865 was fought over the issue of state's rights to secession. For any reason, including grievances. Secession lost. A large marble monument to a man named Lincoln exists in Washington, DC. Lincoln gave a speech called the 'Gettysburg Address'. Secession hopefuls should read it. They are not going to tear down that monument or the burn the Gettysburg Address or rip a star off the flag any time soon.

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You can't fix Samsara.

[Justin]

In line with Imagtek's thoughts, I can't see any reason the U.S. would just give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians. That's not a reflection on the merits of the sovereignty position in my opinion, just practicality.

So the only other way I could see the U.S. giving the land back is from international pressure, and I don't see that happening either. Hell, a year ago Russia stormed Crimea with tanks, took a big chunk of eastern Ukraine, and shot a commercial airliner out of the sky. And one year later, it's barely a blip on the news radar, and Crimea isn't getting returned to Ukraine any time soon.

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I see this as a complete non-starter. Sorry.

[opihikao]

There is a balance somewhere in all of this. There is compromise, finding it is another challenge. It is a process. There is no way in hell the USA will leave Hawai'i, and some of us, don't want "them" to.

Further, some of us will not "fight" with the greatest military force in the entire world, as we are a vulnerable set of islands, and people. The key is truth. The key is aloha. When, combined, the result will be what is best for all people of Hawai'i today.

Recognition: Done; via ourselves (some of us), and Clinton's apology, in that order.

Reparation: Well, that is to be seen and debated. Not just "dead President's on paper", this ties in with the above (recognition). Hawaiians of my ilk, do not value money as much as their land and cultural rights. Aina (land) is invaluable to our ohana. Kupuna teaching still stands for some of us. Not to "live in the past", but to learn from it.

When our resources are truly managed by the people, ALL OF US on this island, via the old system of "Aha Moku", or whatever, there needs to be balance. The State of Hawaii and the Federal government have forced upon us our way of life today, however, it is our charge to blend our culture into our "new world", without facing degradation and the like. Malama aina, malama honua, malama each other.

We are not a stupid people, nor are we heathens today. The keiki are taught to learn their history to better themselves and our aina. Forget the damn food stamp issue, and all of the other benefits everyone is entitiled to if needs warrant. Let's understand the bigger issue we face, and try like hell to find balance.

Leaving you all with this, for some food for thought, as an example (posted the full video of this man speaking on another thread as to the "Kumulipo", and other issues we all face. This is who is teaching these new "warriors".):

"They fear a unified people with a unified goal and vision...when we get educated and mobilized, we get power." Kaleikoa Kaeo continues his talk story in our next featured clip as he uses the metaphor of drinking "dirty water" and speaks to the issue of standing up as a unified people.


http://www.whythemountain.com/…/6/…/dont...e-water-02…


This Hawaiian (me) does want "a star taken off the American flag", or anything of the sort. Won't happen. Got it. What will happen is to be determined by all of us. What I "want" is a better future for my mo'opuna and their mo'opuna.

Personally, it is exciting times, as the voices that have been silenced for generations, are speaking out for themselves, their keiki and mo'opuna, and their kupuna.

Now is the time, and the opportunity may not present itself again in the near future, for balance.

Imua kakou.


JMO.

[PunaMauka2]

sure doesn't hurt to remember, at the end of the day and throughout the zaniest limits of freedom of speech in action, you can be rest assured and thank your lucky 50th star for...


The United States Department of Justice > Civil Rights Division: http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/

About the Division

The Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice, created in 1957 by the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1957, works to uphold the civil and constitutional rights of all Americans, particularly some of the most vulnerable members of our society. The Division enforces federal statutes prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, color, sex, disability, religion, familial status and national origin.

some things are simply not up for compromise.

[kalakoa]

uphold the civil and constitutional rights of all Americans

Civil Rights would then only apply to Hawaiians who accept their forced adoption as Americans, not to any Hawaiians who claim "we are Sovereign and not part of America".

[VancouverIslander]

Where did anyone claim to want to separate? Mostly this seems to be a straw man argument. What if all that is wanted is more say over what happens in terms of development, or more control over lands that are supposed to be used for their benefit?

Opihikao posts very reasonable positions that are essentially ignored in the rush to dump on any level of sovereignty in the assumption that any form of sovereignty means complete nation state sovereignty. Perhaps reasonable dialog and asking intelligent questions is a better way to proceed than assumptions and vitriol.

Just call me Mike

[PunaMauka2]

howzit VancouverIslander, hope the summer is treating you well up in Canada.

well, the whole premise of this thread is a colossally absurd straw man argument now, isn't it. Rene who started this thread kicked it off with posting "So if the State of Hawaii is given back to the Kingdom of Hawaii, do all the welfare checks get cut off?". this being reiterated by quite a few other comments along the same fanciful sovereignty scenario.

i don't know where you are getting the "rush to dump on any level of sovereignty in the assumption that any form of sovereignty means complete nation state sovereignty" thing from. if you feel the desire to hypothesize concretely about some more realistic form with a legal precedent in terms of welfare benefits, then why don't you?

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Where did anyone claim to want to separate?

There are plenty of supporters for a separate Hawaiian Kingdom or a Hawaiian Nation, who also wish to leave the USA. Easy to find with a Google search or YouTube Video search.


Opihikao posts very reasonable positions... Perhaps reasonable dialog and asking intelligent questions is a better way to proceed

There are also plenty of reasonable people like Opihikao who see the discussion of a Hawaiian Kingdom or Hawaiian Nation as a process with many possible consequences and outcomes.

[PunaMauka2]

quote:

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Originally posted by kalakoa

uphold the civil and constitutional rights of all Americans

Civil Rights would then only apply to Hawaiians who accept their forced adoption as Americans, not to any Hawaiians who claim "we are Sovereign and not part of America".

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ha, according to what i am reading, first of all, a person would have to renounce their citizenship by taking a formal oath of renunciation. even then, a whole range of rights and obligations apply.


quote: "For individuals who possess citizenship at one time but later renounce that citizenship, renunciation renders those individuals aliens. Renouncing one's citizenship requires taking a formal oath of renunciation. After renouncing, such persons can either pledge allegiance to another country or can declare themselves "world citizens."

One who alleges alienage bears the burden of proving the claim by a "clear and satisfactory" standard, and the claimant must prove the alienage successfully to initiate a deportation proceeding. To issue a deportation order, the court must find evidence that clearly, unequivocally, and convincingly proves alienage.

A series of classifications exist to describe aliens and their relationships to the United States. In the past the government used the terms "resident alien" and "non-resident alien," but the government has replaced these terms with "immigrant" and "non-immigrant." Some aliens also receive "refugee" or "asylee" status."


probably all that you ever wanted to know and more regarding the "Rights, Privileges, and Duties of Aliens" can be found here at The Legal Information Institute, Cornell University Law School: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/alien

[VancouverIslander]

quote:

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Originally posted by PunaMauka2

howzit VancouverIslander, hope the summer is treating you well up in Canada.

well, the whole premise of this thread is a colossally absurd straw man argument now, isn't it. Rene who started this thread kicked it off with posting "So if the State of Hawaii is given back to the Kingdom of Hawaii, do all the welfare checks get cut off?". this being reiterated by quite a few other comments along the same fanciful sovereignty scenario.

i don't know where you are getting the "rush to dump on any level of sovereignty in the assumption that any form of sovereignty means complete nation state sovereignty" thing from. if you feel the desire to hypothesize concretely about some more realistic form with a legal precedent in terms of welfare benefits, then why don't you?

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We've had incredible weather for almost 2 months now. The temperature of Mountain View with the general weather of Kona.

Where I was going with the 'rush to dump on any level of sovereignty' statement is that it seems that many in this thread and others are spending a lot of time bashing sovereignty and I think this is due to an assumption on their part that it means separate nation state rather than something like the Navajo nation or other similar first nation in the continental US. These latter forms of sovereignty I think are some of the models I see as likely compromises in the end.

Just call me Mike