Posts: 1,099
Threads: 71
Joined: Jan 2009
leilanidude: What year are you desiring that those "rights" be restored to?
dakine: Now. To the rights afforded any independent sovereign people today. But for reals, I think the answer is a bit more involved than that. If you are really interested I would suggest visiting the faq page at the Nai Aupuni website
The link says nothing in answer to leilanidude's question, and neither does your reply.
dakine: According to PM2 I am a racist because I believe that a group of people that have been harmed and had their rights violated should have those rights reinstated.
By saying "I believe the right for the Hawaiian people to be the stewards of lands..." you become racist according to your pasted dictionary definition. You believe the "Hawaiians" to be superior to people living in Hawaii, such that only these "Hawaiians" should decide who builds what where. You reason that these "Hawaiians" have been harmed (historically, I assume, and not by telescopes) so it is OK to for them to be superior in this sense.
There are folks who share your belief in a fundamental justice in reparations. And others who see pros and cons to Hawaii having become a US state and believe the "harm" is relative to the benefits. That the "harm" is not excuse enough to create a superior class of "Hawaiians" that can decide who builds what where.
I put "Hawaiians" in quotes because it is another question never really answered: What is the criteria for deciding who is a True "Hawaiian". Nai Aupuni has their answer, appearing completely arbitrary, and besides, who died and made Nai Aupuni taxi driver anyway? Not only deciding how we should all get somewhere, but where we go as well. But only their definition of True "Hawaiians" have a voice. That's as racist as Kamehameha Schools are, but for a haole to say so, s/he will be accused of racism.
The "movement" will always struggle with the issue of legitimacy, since by many accounts it is illegitimate.
Cheers,
Kirt
Posts: 14,104
Threads: 424
Joined: Aug 2012
By saying "I believe the right for the Hawaiian people to be the stewards of lands..." you become racist according to your pasted dictionary definition. You believe the "Hawaiians" to be superior to people living in Hawaii, such that only these "Hawaiians" should decide who builds what where.
Didn't we go through this with the "Native" people that were already living on the mainland when the white man came?
Posts: 1,099
Threads: 71
Joined: Jan 2009
Probably, kalakoa. And probably all the things we've been through have not been to either side's satisfaction.
Probably I should join you in not getting back into it. As somebody famous said: "Sometimes, many times, the best thing to do is nothing. Almost all of the time the best thing to say is nothing". Or something like that...
Cheers,
Kirt
Posts: 14,104
Threads: 424
Joined: Aug 2012
Sometimes, many times, the best thing to do is nothing.
Thanks for the reminder -- by that measure, we live in the Best County In The World.
Posts: 785
Threads: 6
Joined: Apr 2012
quote:
Originally posted by knieft
Probably I should join you in not getting back into it. As somebody famous said: "Sometimes, many times, the best thing to do is nothing. Almost all of the time the best thing to say is nothing". Or something like that...
Cheers,
Kirt
I would counter with this one: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Attributed to Edmund Burke, an Irish political philosopher.
Also found this one by him:
"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare."
I'm going to have to read more of this guy...
Posts: 1,099
Threads: 71
Joined: Jan 2009
and the opposite of every profound idea is another profound idea...or something
Cheers
Kirt
Posts: 1,440
Threads: 4
Joined: Sep 2014
In my absence, Knieft and PaulW appear to have quite adequately responded to dakine's continued dribble attempting to rationalize racial discrimination backed by faux neo-traditionalist religious zealotry. Thanks.
Posts: 266
Threads: 3
Joined: Jan 2013
Gypsy confuses me once again. I do not see how science trumps culture. No 'scopes up there with No Culture Here signs. A cultural center has even been discussed here.
13 "outdated" telescopes? Who told you this? Don't listen to them any more.
But I agree, TMT agreement provides a lot of money. And I am also concerned that all of the citizens of the state of Hawaii aren't being given a voice.
Pam in CA
Pam in CA
Posts: 266
Threads: 3
Joined: Jan 2013
[quote] Originally posted by AKpilot
Pahoted, I'll assume you are an astronomer with a statement like that. You asked for my credentials, let us hear yours. I comment on matters Aviation because I am an Airline Transport Pilot, rated in everything form bush planes to jets, 13 years flying experience. Tom talks Astronomy because he works at UKIRT. I am not trying to be snarky, it just irks me when folks voice strong opinions on something they are clearly not knowledgeable in. I am sure Tom feels the same.
AKpilot
AKpilot,
I hope you don't get some gobbledygook from me. I tried to send you an email (I'm Pam, Tom Kerr's girlfriend, not some stalker) just saying I enjoy your posts. After clicking to send I got a big dramatic screen announcing problems!
Ack! Who knows what it sent  I apologize if it sent a mess[ ]
Pam in CA
Pam in CA
Posts: 266
Threads: 3
Joined: Jan 2013
quote:
Originally posted by dakine
Telescopes, destroyers of indigenous peoples. You can't make this stuff up...
I think that's an over simplification of the situation beepbeep. To me the protest is similar to taking dessert away from a child until they eat their dinner. The protesters are preventing the further development of Mauna Kea until the land use rights, of which Mauna Kea is a part, and the question of sovereignty are settled. As such the TMT is just an icon, a cog, in a much larger process. Once the larger questions are answered who can say how things might develop, though I don't hold out much hope for the TMT project. Unfortunately until they are the TMT remains the flashpoint around which so many have gathered. And I agree, it's a shame. But more importantly I believe the right for the Hawaiian people to be the stewards of lands such as Mauna Kea should be addressed before those lands are further developed. Not only on Mauna Kea but state wide. And, if the spiritual significance of those lands is central to their beliefs, and they see things differently than the more recent arrivals to the islands, so be it.
On another note I see the UH put out a press release throwing the UKIRT under the bus, if you will. The statement is here:
http://www.hawaii.edu/news/2015/10/21/th...issioning/
It's interesting how they would do that just days before the Supremes make their decision regarding the DLNR/UH debacle. Another example of incompetence by those at the helm methinks. They must be really worried.
I personally think there should be a state wide moratorium on all development on all ceded lands, and any other significant (to the issues) lands, until the Hawaiian constitution is formed, and a representative body, a Hawaiian government, is in place and ready to join the conversation. If Ige had the cojones he would instruct all the relative state and county departments (planning and building etc) to refrain from all activity associated with those lands until then.
Hi dakine,
Sorry quoting is difficult for me on the iPad; the forum software doesn't seem to like my tablet much and I never know what is going to come out. Can't proofread right now. So you get what you get [  ] lol.
I thought this post of yours was civil and so I wanted to reply.
I can see a moratorium on future development as long as development to which has already been agreed proceeds without interference. Agreements must be kept; this is a matter of honor.
As I have said in other posts, I think it is idiotic and reprehensible to kill UKIRT, due to the quality of the science it is producing and how relatively low-cost it is. Once again, rational decisions are eschewed. A terrible use of scientific and financial resources. Upsetting and embarrassing. Poor Hawaii, so badly represented.
I wish Hawaiian activists would be more interested in the plight of keiki in poverty, and/or other pressing needs of their people, than spitting on a science of which they should be proud, given the Hawaiian history of astronomy. In fact, since stopping TMT refuses money for keiki education, and throws an agreement that seven years were spent making right into the trash, it is hard for me to have a lot of respect for the protesters, despite my love and admiration for Hawaiian culture.
Not to mention the feces issue. Sigh. Repulsive, barbaric. I could lead a better movement all by myself, and that is really saying something.
Thank you for sharing your point of view.
Pam in CA
Pam in CA
|
