Hawaiians, Shorelines & “Mother Ocean’s” Revenge

[punaticbychoice]

HOTPE :
Exactly, and thank you.
Thank you again, and again.

[MarkD]

HOTPE, your piece is very interesting. The Leilani Estates story is unfortunate.

I can see the frustration with people who repeatedly make unsubstantiated or outright false statements... on Punatalk. Speaking generally, people do this for several reasons:

1) Sometimes a person is just being a devil’s advocate and is using misleading information to test someone’s capacity to respond. (This group, generally a minority, is usually just interested in intellectual argument.)

2) People who spout out all kinds of misinformation to irritate others. I guess you folks call them trolls. Engaging them results in “unprofitable conversation.” These people often comment erratically on numerous subjects. They really don’t care about a position; they just want to be heard.

3) People with a cause who are willing to lie fragrantly to advance it. These folks are the most problematic. It seems the assertion is that some TMT critics are flagrant liars. (A combination of 1, 2 or 3 can regularly occur.)

Being new here, I am still assessing how much some TMT critics are actually lying as opposed to exaggerating, etc. There are many rhetorical ways to discredit a project or idea without using outright lies. (In my advocacy for shoreline issues, which I view as a topic quite distinct from the question of development on Maunakea, I sometimes throw in exaggerations, but I largely stick to facts and reasonable interpretations.)

In any event, are we overestimating the impact of anti-TMT lies? Are these lies being used effectively in the TMT public hearings? Are lies convincing large numbers of Punatalk readers? Or are they merely irritating some people? (Just asking.) I note the Leilani case describes a real life situation that harms a family.

And the TMT project involves religious views. One is ill-advised to brand religious views as lies. There is a perennial problem with religious folks of almost all faiths or outlooks not agreeing on standard differences between beliefs and facts.

I support TMT, but given the context (and history) of the native Hawaiian cause statewide, if the Hawaiians engineer a situation where the TMT project and/or continued telescope operations on Maunakea are compelled to make a pay off, I am not outraged by that. Maunakea is arguably the world’s best site for astronomy and additional charges could be levied on the telescopes (and then directed into OHA, HHL, etc.)

Yes this is unfair. We could term this extortion--obtaining an outcome through coercion. But I am a cynic: Extortion happens all the time. Often it is poor people on the short end of the stick.

(And being a cynic, it seems spite could also be a partial factor. Native Hawaiians have lost many land issues in the past 100 years or more. The spite charge is offensive to native Hawaiians, so perhaps I should restate what I said in another thread: The TMT opposition, among other things, is an exercise of power; native Hawaiians are pushing here because they are getting a result. [This is also somewhat offensive but less so than spite, which is vindictive.])

If the protesters are sincere in halting TMT and then later all other telescopes (after 2033 lease end) on religious grounds, that is both unfortunate and short sighted. Eric1600 gave a good explanation of how the state has worked to accord the Hawaiian burial sites proper respect. The powers that be will never accept the eviction of all telescopes (and rightfully so), but because the TMT decision apparently is on a tight timetable, it seems the protesters might be able to block the project.

If I am uninformed anywhere I am happy to be corrected.

Two side items:

1) JimHAPuna, Please break your text into paragraphs. Easier to read. Thx.

2) I am having a discussion with gypsy on another thread re TMT. It seems to be going well in terms of honest discussion. We will see where it goes.

[leilanidude]

and additional charges could be levied on the telescopes (and then directed into OHA, HHL, etc.)
-----------
You are not very familiar with this, are you? These groups get massive amounts of $ already and do almost nothing to actually advance Hawaiians.

[punaticbychoice]

leilanidude:
Agreed.

[MarkD]

From leilanidude: You are not very familiar with this, are you? These groups get massive amounts of $ already and do almost nothing to actually advance Hawaiians.

My opinion does not really matter here. It is native Hawaiians' opinions that do. They are the ones protesting, right?

And your statement that OHA, HHL "do almost nothing to actually advance Hawaiians" and the implication that I am foolish for suggesting that money be directed to these organization misses the point.

I did not offer the opinion that this should happen. I suggested that native Hawaiians might wish this to be the case. (I am not up to speed on the Hawaiian organizations; whatever the case they represented native Hawaiians.)

You seem to be offering the view that compensation has zero bearing on this case. This could imply that the TMT issue is strictly native Hawaiians' concern for the sacredness of the mountain being desecrated by telescopes.

That is a valid perspective. Can you offer Punatalk readers a few paragraphs of text explaining why you think this (or some other scenario) is true, rather than just writing a short comment alluding to my ignorance?

[TomK]

MarkD,

"And your statement that OHA, HHL "do almost nothing to actually advance Hawaiians" and the implication that I am foolish for suggesting that money be directed to these organization misses the point."

Leilanidude wrote "You are not very familiar with this, are you?". Where did he imply you were foolish?

ETA: I'm sure HOTPE will respond, but when you wrote "The Leilani Estates story is unfortunate." did you not notice that HOTPE used the word "parable"?

[leilanidude]

Can you offer Punatalk readers a few paragraphs of text explaining why you think this (or some other scenario) is true, rather than just writing a short comment alluding to my ignorance?
---------------
Not going to bother. Anyone who lives here, especially Hawaiians, knows full well how little the various agencies actually do, for the good of Hawaiians.

I did not allude to your ignorance. Rather, I alluded to what is becoming patently obvious to others. All of your information seems to only come from what you read on the internet - you have no first-hand knowledge of Hawaii, or Puna for that matter.

[kalakoa]

how little the various agencies actually do, for the good of Hawaiians.

They actually do little for any of the "low-income" residents, regardless of ancestry.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

HOTPE, your piece is very interesting. The Leilani Estates story is unfortunate.

As TomK mentioned, my story was a parable, a fable. It was fictional, but did incorporate non-fiction elements. For instance some of the false claims made against the TMT were presented as false claims against the fictional family.

I can see the frustration with people who repeatedly make unsubstantiated or outright false statements... on Punatalk. Speaking generally, people do this for several reasons:

We're not here to analyze the reasons people have for lying. I'm not anyway, I'm not a psychologist. There could be three or 3000 different reasons. As they pertain to the TMT, what does it matter if in the end they are in one way or another, simply lies?

If I know what I shall find, I do not want to find it. Uncertainty is the salt of life. - biochemist Erwin Chargaff

[MarkD]

Here we go again. A person wants to criticize someone else’s writing and rather than cordially writing something like Your views do not take into account several things (and then continuing on to explain the shortcomings), they derisively write:

"You are not very familiar with this, are you?"

And now I hear: “All of your information seems to only come from what you read on the internet - you have no first-hand knowledge of Hawaii, or Puna for that matter.”

It is just so hard for some Punatalk commentators to respond to someone whose writing they don’t like without throwing in insults, isn’t it.

* * *

I did not make it clear that I understood the Leilani Estates story was a parable. I regret the oversight.

Parables usually have basis in truth. I know people in Puna who have had negative experiences with neighbors somewhat similar to what is described. (It mostly happens to recent arrivals from the mainland.) It occurred to me that perhaps the parable was close to home for some folks commenting on this issue. (A lot of folks at the telescopes are either from the mainland or the UK.)

HOTPE, using the parable example, wrote: “couldn't the people who repeatedly make unsubstantiated or outright false statements be considered rude every time they post those types of comments?”

I implied that the parable situation describes a distressing personal matter. I asked whether the lies being put forth about TMT are comparable. I asked if the lies have had an impact on community sentiment on TMT.

* * *

Can someone please provide a summary of these lies. The “unsubstantiated or outright false statements” has now appeared repeatedly and seems to be of great concern.

This comment, an accusation, is highly relevant to the discussion on TMT.

I have apparently offered too many unsolicited observations on the TMT issue, though perhaps as George Carlin famously quipped to the lady who didn’t like to hear his language on the radio: ”Ma’am, you can always change the station.”

Let us shift discussion to the lies against TMT.

* * *

What is only marginally relevant here is this business of Hawaiian organizations being dysfunctional, put forth by Leilanidude. I agree the organizations are dysfunctional. So?

OHA has apparently received some money in this matter. And according to Civil Beat in 2015, “...nobody mentioned Clayton Hee’s 2002 demand for astronomers to cough up “$20 million in endowments” for the Office of Hawaiian Affairs (OHA).”

Read the story. Highly relevant. I said money might be an issue here. Is there disagreement?

http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesM...Money.aspx

P.S. Leilanidude, if you comment again, please do your best to be cordial.