Another take on TMT - Aggrieved native Hawaiians

[MarkD]

"the UH Manoa graduation protesting TMT could all be haole as far as I know, their race doesn't matter in the slightest."

It matters significantly since one of the primary arguments against TMT is that it offends native Hawaiian sensibilities about what they perceive as a sacred site (Mauna Kea). The group is probably a core of native Hawaiians with various other-race supporters.

"students....are ignoring their education, which hopefully taught them the difference between science and myth"

I don't have a problem with this statement, but it might be offensive to native Hawaiians. Hawaii's shark culling program was suspended in the early 1990 because some Hawaiians declared sharks were aumakua and shouldn't be killed.

That's a myth. And the Hawaiians have many more. They can also be categorized as religious perspectives. Many native cultures have these perspectives, as do some modern cultures.

Most everyone understands that religious beliefs conflict with science, but some people take umbrage at having that pointed out.

all of these bogus claims were tested by experts and found untrue.

A lot of frivolous environmental complaints were raised. Likely some of the protesting environmentalists are now latching on to the native Hawaiian cause for effect.

[TomK]

"It matters significantly since one of the primary arguments against TMT is that it offends native Hawaiian sensibilities about what they perceive as a sacred site (Mauna Kea). The group is probably a core of native Hawaiians with various other-race supporters."

Firstly: The protestors that camped out by the VIS during the previous TMT protest included many people from the mainland that came here simply to protest something. I met many of them as did other MK observatory staff. Many really didn't have much of an idea what they were protesting other than they saw it as an opportunity to protest big business or the US, which of course the TMT isn't.

Andrew Cooper, an engineer at the Keck Observatory, documented his own experience here:

http://darkerview.com/wordpress/?p=15608

Secondly, many native Hawaiians support to the TMT, so to simply lump all of them into one group is disingenuous at best and at worst, another attempt by you to stereotype a group of people to support your own views.

[MarkD]

Your first statement is much correct.

Secondly, many native Hawaiians support to the TMT, so to simply lump all of them into one group is disingenuous at best and at worst, another attempt by you to stereotype a group of people to support your own views.

A faction of native Hawaiians, the so-called Protectors, are the primary opposition to TMT. A variety of supporters, some environmentalists and the people you identified in your first paragraph, are supporting the Protectors. Rallying to their cause.

I fail to see what is controversial here--what lumping or what stereotyping is going on.

[TomK]

A couple of articles/letters some might be interested in reading:

1) https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/05/thirty...is-future/

As usual, those against the project who have commented have just got things wrong with at least one of them arguing about the cost. There is no cost to Hawaii.

2) https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/201...-may-24-5/

A bizarre letter in support of the TMT. One or two things are correct but the rest is nonsense, e.g.,

"Earth’s first starship will depart within the lifetime of most people reading this. The physical principles for a functional warp-drive are now understood. No, it does not go faster than the speed of light, like Hollywood. It does not need to."

The support is appreciated but I think someone has been watching too much Star Trek.

"Interstellar navigation software will become useless. What is required is a discipline of using the depths of the human mind to manage the countless subtle nuances of the deep to maintain knowledge of one’s position. Such a discipline exists and has been nurtured for thousands of years in Polynesian navigation culture. Here, in Hawaii. By Native Hawaiians."

I'm struggling to understand what the author thinks here. Native Hawaiians are experts in interstellar navigation?

[randomq]

We will navigate the universe by the stars, flying in our outrigger rockets to planets unknown! Posted at 4:20pm...

[TomK]

Here's a nice story about a local guy who ended up working for the CFHT on Mauna Kea.

https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/201...telescope/

During the TMT controversy, many opponents of the project have claimed that the observatories do not hire locals. This is untrue, of course, and in fact, the observatories would much rather hire local people than have to bring them over from the mainland or other countries.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

This doesn’t specifically pertain to The TMT, but I thought it may be appropriate here as it complements past posts about the TMT and STEM funding for local students.

NASA has made $1 million available for engineering students in local high schools and colleges. The money is intended to help underrepresented minorities at UofH; Native Hawaiians, Samoans, Micronesians and Filipinos.
Stay in school kids.

https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2019/05/31/n...gineering/

[kalakoa]

Dirt skiiers on Mauna Kea: desecration.

Rules to prevent future dirt skiiers on Mauna Kea: desecration.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/06/0...mauna-kea/

(Paywall on important local issues: desecration.)

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Rules to prevent future dirt skiiers on Mauna Kea: desecration.

The initial set pf proposed rules were considered too restrictive by some of the people who asked for greater restrictions on Mauna Kea. In the latest discussion it was noted that native practitioners commented their rights were affected because they couldn't use flashlights or cell phones on the mountain. (As part of their practice?)

"Folks are concerned on how it might impact cultural practices on the mountain for example,” says Souki, “There were a couple of comments about not being able to use flashlights or a cell phone.”
https://www.hawaiipublicradio.org/post/a...-kea-rules

[kalakoa]

native practitioners commented their rights were affected because they couldn't use flashlights or cell phones on the mountain

So ... "desecration" is really arbitrary.