Economic Alternatives For Hawaii

[hankie1]

Retirement benefits are taxed. Only government retirement benefits are tax free.

Sorry most retirement are not tax but your social security is.

[terracore]

[quote='eightfingers2.0' pid='324887' dateline='1593417750']
You can NOT tax your way to prosperity.


There is some evidence to challenge that assumption.  Nordic countries have very high taxes, for instance, but their education, social programs, job training programs, universal healthcare, and safety nets are a form of prosperity.  They are both more wealthy on average than other European countries, and have less economic inequality.  They are also much more engaged in their elections than we are here in Hawaii, have better education, and their leaders are held to task by the population and unions.

I think the problem we have here in Hawaii is that our leaders suck, and also we haven't established enough resilient economic activity to support a high-tax, high-service model.  We have systemic incompetence and corruption, and they already squander our tax money on themselves and their cronies, so why would we want to give them more?  But if we elected proper leaders, and they cleaned house, and enticed sustainable industries to move to Hawaii, moving workers over from the public sector to the new private sector jobs...  Maybe then we could think about raising taxes for the common good.  Green infrastructure projects that would reduce our dependence on oil and lower electric bills.  Free education and job training to reduce the welfare rolls.  Better teachers, more and better medical specialists...

A very apples and oranges comparison.  I'll use Denmark for example because it has the highest tax rate of about 60%.  The population of Denmark is 5.73 million.  New York City has some of the highest taxes in our country and is 8.623 million people.  The outcomes are nothing alike, so obviously taxing people more doesn't produce the same outcome.

Lets phrase this a different way:  Let's say that we taxed every billionaire in the USA at 100%- no, go even further and not just tax them at 100%, but confiscate 100% of their wealth.  All 500+ of the billionaires.  All their money, stocks, real estate, trust funds, every last penny.  Make them all homeless.  Take all their money and spend it.  It would net the country about $3 trillion (a trillion is 1,000 billion) dollars, which is less than the federal government has spent this year, and probably about half of what the country has borrowed this year, and half of what the federal reserve added to it's balance sheet this year (and it's still adding).

I agree that our tax system needs to be overhauled, a lot of things do, (a tax code with 80,000 pages needs to be wiped clean and start over).  But we don't have a problem of not taxing people enough, we have a bureaucracy and spending problem.  Taxation is theft.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” (Margaret Thatcher)
Yes, and apparently in about 6 months.

[randomq]

You can NOT tax your way to prosperity.


There is some evidence to challenge that assumption.  Nordic countries have very high taxes, for instance, but their education, social programs, job training programs, universal healthcare, and safety nets are a form of prosperity.  They are both more wealthy on average than other European countries, and have less economic inequality.  They are also much more engaged in their elections than we are here in Hawaii, have better education, and their leaders are held to task by the population and unions.

I think the problem we have here in Hawaii is that our leaders suck, and also we haven't established enough resilient economic activity to support a high-tax, high-service model.  We have systemic incompetence and corruption, and they already squander our tax money on themselves and their cronies, so why would we want to give them more?  But if we elected proper leaders, and they cleaned house, and enticed sustainable industries to move to Hawaii, moving workers over from the public sector to the new private sector jobs...  Maybe then we could think about raising taxes for the common good.  Green infrastructure projects that would reduce our dependence on oil and lower electric bills.  Free education and job training to reduce the welfare rolls.  Better teachers, more and better medical specialists...

A very apples and oranges comparison.  I'll use Denmark for example because it has the highest tax rate of about 60%.  The population of Denmark is 5.73 million.  New York City has some of the highest taxes in our country and is 8.623 million people.  The outcomes are nothing alike, so obviously taxing people more doesn't produce the same outcome.

Lets phrase this a different way:  Let's say that we taxed every billionaire in the USA at 100%- no, go even further and not just tax them at 100%, but confiscate 100% of their wealth.  All 500+ of the billionaires.  All their money, stocks, real estate, trust funds, every last penny.  Make them all homeless.  Take all their money and spend it.  It would net the country about $3 trillion (a trillion is 1,000 billion) dollars, which is less than the federal government has spent this year, and probably about half of what the country has borrowed this year, and half of what the federal reserve added to it's balance sheet this year (and it's still adding).

I agree that our tax system needs to be overhauled, a lot of things do, (a tax code with 80,000 pages needs to be wiped clean and start over).  But we don't have a problem of not taxing people enough, we have a bureaucracy and spending problem.  Taxation is theft.

That's quite the straw-man you constructed there.  I didn't suggest we impoverish billionaires.  And obviously I am skeptic of our Hawaii government as well.  But I think, with the right government, there is a balance to be struck where taxes support life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to a greater degree than we have today.  Smarter, healthier people living in a fair society, with opportunities to look forward to, and a social safety net.

I believe in paying for what I use and benefit from, so our taxes here in Puna are at least partially not theft.  The fuel tax not going to our "private" roads and whatever we are contributing to Oahu Rail, though, I'll agree *that* is theft...

[eightfingers2.0]

Nordic countries are not considered prosperous and the residents agree.

[randomq]

Nordic countries are not considered prosperous and the residents agree.

They are very widely considered prosperous. Do you really dispute that, or are you just opposed to us adopting a similar model in Hawaii?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legatum_...rity_Index

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Scandinavi...ns=4542969

https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/y...omies.html

[eightfingers2.0]

“Do you really dispute that, or are you just opposed to us adopting a similar model in Hawaii?“

Who is this “us” you’re referring to?

and,

Why hasn’t Hawaii already copied the “Nordic example”?

[Rob Tucker]

I have spent some time in Denmark visiting friends. Its a great place. My friends say they don't complain about taxes because they feel they get what they pay for. It is interesting to be in a place where people generally do not live in general fear. Good child care, good schools, great health care, good housing, homelessness is not a fear there.

The problem here, I believe, is we do not get value for the taxes paid. There is the rub.

[randomq]

“Do you really dispute that, or are you just opposed to us adopting a similar model in Hawaii?“

Who is this “us” you’re referring to?

and,

Why hasn’t Hawaii already copied the “Nordic example”?

Us = people living in Hawaii

I think there is too much waste and corruption in our government currently for anyone to consider giving them more money.  (Not that we have much say...)  But in the long term I think it does make sense to invest more in bringing as many people as possible up to the middle class in Hawaii, with good education and investment in attracting high tech jobs, improving quality of life, etc.  I think it's more sustainable for the state and country as a whole if there is less economic disparity and economic tragedy, while still allowing hard workers and shrewd investors to earn an even better lifestyle.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

invest...bringing as many people as possible up to the middle class in Hawaii... good education and investment in attracting high tech jobs, improving quality of life...

There was a popular movie some decades ago, one in which the protagonist heard a voice whispering "if you build it, they will come."  He struggled for a time, but then realized what he had to do.  
If as eightfingers suggested, if we provided the schools, teachers and jobs that excited and motivated our kids they might remain in school, graduate, and find a purpose in life right here on this island.  Our keiki may finally shake off the ghosts of the cornfield canefield, and see there are great prospects for a career and life on Hawaii Island and ask, "Is this heaven?"
And we'll smile and reply, "no, it's Puna."

But you have to build it first.  You can't play baseball in a cornfield, with seven foot high corn stalks.  It would be frustrating.

[hankie1]

I think we should just tax all business and people a flat 10 percent with no deductions . You wouldnt hundreds of pages of tax laws and collect a lot more money then you do know.