Vaccinated People Spread The Delta Variant, CDC Says

[AaronM]

Hey, horseshoes and hand grenades are close enough I guess. Just not as black and white as some would suggest.

[AaronM]

FOLLOW YOUR NOSE TO HERD IMMUNITY.

The biology behind ‘breakthrough’ cases and the confusing CDC mask guidance.
By Dr. Michael Segal
Aug. 16, 2021

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s latest Covid guidelines have many Americans confused. Vaccinated people are supposed to resume wearing masks, lest they contract and spread the virus. Yet unvaccinated people are still strongly urged to get the shots, which are said to be highly effective. How can both these claims be true?

The answer is that there’s more than one kind of immunity. Internal immunity protects the inside of the body, including the lungs. This occurs by release of antibodies of the Immunoglobulin G type, or IgG, into the blood and production of T-cells. Vaccines injected into our muscles are highly effective at stimulating internal immunity. This largely protects vaccinated people from being overwhelmed by the coronavirus, unless they have an immunodeficiency or are exposed to an unusually large amount of the virus. Vaccination will dramatically reduce your likelihood of serious illness or death if you’re exposed to SARS-CoV-2.

In contrast, mucosal immunity provides the first line of defense by protecting the nose and mouth, and by doing so also reduces spread to others. The mucous membranes secrete a particular form of antibodies of the Immunoglobulin A type, or IgA. But vaccines injected into our muscles—including all the approved inoculations against Covid—are largely ineffective at stimulating the secretion of IgA into our noses that occurs after actual infection with a virus. As a result, vaccinated people can contract a Covid-19 infection confined to the mucous membranes. They may get the sniffles but can spread the virus to others even if they are asymptomatic. That’s why it makes sense for them to wear a mask under some circumstances.

All this has implications for public-health authorities’ determination to achieve herd immunity through vaccination alone. In the Provincetown, Mass., outbreak, which informed the CDC’s recent change in guidelines, viral loads in the nose were “similarly high” in the vaccinated and unvaccinated, suggesting that the vaccine’s efficacy against infection in the nose had fallen to zero with the advent of the Delta variant. That would mean herd immunity through vaccination is impossible.

But this data appears to be distorted by ascertainment bias: The vaccinated people who showed up for testing were disproportionately those who were symptomatic. Better-controlled data from the Mayo Clinic suggests that efficacy of the vaccines against nasal infection, including asymptomatic cases, has fallen from the original level of around 90% to 76% for the Moderna vaccine and 42% for the Pfizer vaccine since Delta’s emergence.

It follows that herd immunity from intramuscular vaccination is still possible, but it would require either a higher level of vaccination or continued masking and social distancing.

Vaccines administered via nasal spray exist for other ailments, including polio. They’re under development for Covid-19 to supplement existing shots with mucosal immunity. In the meantime, herd immunity may prove difficult to achieve unless more people get infected and develop natural immunity of both types. Given the dangers of infection, officials are rightly reluctant to encourage actual infection, and loath to mention its benefit in conferring mucosal immunity.

But we shouldn’t shun people who have recovered from Covid. Vaccine mandates for in-person interactions—whether imposed by governments, employers or businesses—should make exceptions for the previously infected, who thanks to natural mucosal immunity are likely at less risk than never-infected vaccinated people of spreading the virus to others.

Dr. Segal is a neurologist and neuroscientist.

[Obie]

"Kind of looks like party lines to me."

Only about 35 percent of people living in Puna are vaccinated. So you are saying 65% of Puna is Republican ?

[ChunksterK]

"So you are saying 65% of Puna is Republican ?" - Obie

I'm sure that's not true, but there may be close to that percentage in Puna who are ignorant, crazy, and/or living on the fringe.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

65% of Puna is Republican ?
...
ignorant, crazy, ...

Voter turnout in Puna hovers around 30%.  So more likely 65% are non-voters rather than Republican.  Not sure what the percentage of ignorant and/or crazy might be, but best case scenario is that number intersects heavily with the non-voter segment of the population.  Best case, but from past election results not always heavily enough.

[My 2 cents]

Seems to me that a big reason for lower vax rates in rural areas is the simple fact that in general people in rural areas have an easier time staying away from crowds. I would go stir crazy being confined to an apartment or house in town, but out here in the country there is plenty to do at home. Staying home is one of my favorite things, with or without covid.

[sistersue]

Seems to me that a big reason for lower vax rates in rural areas is the simple fact that in general people in rural areas have an easier time staying away from crowds.  I would go stir crazy being confined to an apartment or house in town, but out here in the country there is plenty to do at home.  Staying home is one of my favorite things, with or without covid.

And my 2 cents is that people who don't get vaccinated think it won't happen to them - that they won't end up in the hospital.  There are also some that have had bad reactions to flu shots in the past so they're afraid of the covid shot.  Also, a lot of the unvaccinated just don't care about protecting others or are too lazy to go and get the shot.  The two times I caught covid were from my family members, not the grocery store.

[MyManao]

Seems to me that a big reason for lower vax rates...

Is fear. That and the suspension of reason that is so popular these days.

I live very isolated, and my work is digital, so I have no need to protect myself from the hordes of insanity 'cause I don't surround myself with such. And, still, I was in line to be poked the day my age group was eligible.

And even now, I won't engage in society, go out to eat, attend a concert, until we have a vaccine mandate. Or at least commercial establishments take it upon themselves to create vaccinated only establishments.

That's my 2 cents

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Kaiser COVID patients are not only out of luck, they're now out of pocket.  While this includes both vaccinated and unvaccinated members, the unvaccinated will probably pay the big bucks.

Kaiser stopped covering out-of-pocket costs for Covid patients nationwide on Aug. 1, affecting about 190,000 members in Hawaii, Lott said.

Clarification: A previous version of this story said the change would affect Kaiser’s 260,000 Hawaii members. Kaiser clarified Monday that about 70,000 members who are on Medicaid and Medicare won’t be affected.
https://www.civilbeat.org/2021/08/covid-...-patients/

[Rob Tucker]

My 2 cents Wrote: And my 2 cents is that people who don't get vaccinated think it won't happen to them - that they won't end up in the hospital.  There are also some that have had bad reactions to flu shots in the past so they're afraid of the covid shot.  Also, a lot of the unvaccinated just don't care about protecting others or are too lazy to go and get the shot.  The two times I caught covid were from my family members, not the grocery store.


I am leaning toward an opinion that at any given moment a sizeable number of people have no idea what they are doing or why.