Largest Price increase you have seen ?

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

If you’re still unconvinced these newfangled ‘lectric cars will catch on, Ford split into 2 divisions today, one specifically focused on EVs.  Ford’s new Mustang Mach-E SUV is the highest rated car at the moment, gets 314 miles on a charge.  Pahoa to Kona is 93 miles.

Ford says that splitting into two distinct units will help boost profits and streamline operations. The reorganization will allow engineers, designers, and other Ford employees to focus on either EV or gasoline efforts, rather than splitting their time between the two, the company said. Ford said the new structure will help it nearly double profit margins by 2026, the same year it plans to produce more than 2 million electric cars.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/ford-...39541.html

[HawaiiEV]

Should be able to make to kona and back, to Hilo and back and then nowhere else for the day. EVs are the future, they come with limits for now, including the inability to even buy one. We were very happy with big island Toyota, only took 7 months for our order to come in and we paid MSRP. Supposedly almost impossible to get, especially at MSRP on the mainland so we feel blessed. If the Silverado EV ever comes it claims 400 miles which is enough to get to Kona and back staying in the 30-80% range and still having range in case of emergency. Or say if I wanted to go to Kona, spend the night, drive down to captain cook and then back around the island. I don’t like the idea of coming home with a vehicle that can’t go anywhere until it’s charged for a couple hours, it’s hard on the battery and doesn’t leave margin for error.

Any guess on gas prices over the next year? I suspect $6, making the ev match the price of gas in modern ice engine cars. Of course Helco gonna go up too… along with everything else and supply getting shorter and shorter.

I should clarify I intend my new vehicle purchases to last more then 10 years, apparently this is not common among the California folks I talk to online who are happy to pay for new vehicles every 4 years or less. If you can afford a new $50k vehicle on such a time table you probably don’t need to worry about preserving battery health long term. Just replace and buy new! My two other vehicles are running strong at 20+ years and don’t intend to replace unless absolutely necessary, I think this is better for the environment in the long run…

[kalakoa]

Not so much "unconvinced" as "can't buy something that matches my use case today". Prototypes and "plans to produce" won't get me to Costco.

[Rob Tucker]

A free ride on an electric bus could get you to Costco and back. Maybe not as convenient, but doable.

[kalakoa]

I would still have to drive to the electric bus. The argument beyond this diverges so far off-topic that it needs to be its own research paper which will explore the way these problems are mostly being addressed at pavement density (making it indirectly "classist") instead of at the edges. Should people simply not be allowed to make lifestyle choices that exceed the average resource consumption footprint?

[HawaiiEV]

Some information on battery degradation. Tesla using Panasonic technology same as Toyota is the best in the business, averaging 10% capacity loss after 10 years. Their battery warranty is 70% capacity 100-150k miles depending on the vehicle.
   
The retained capacity will very a lot depending on many factors including time spent fully charged, depth of discharge: taking it to empty and charging rate. DC fast charging is very hard on the battery and so is keeping it fully charged or running it empty. Tesla allows people to set full charge limits and most do, they also try very hard not to fully discharge, again the magic range is 30-80% state of charge.
I will put a graph in the next post that shows electric vehicle battery degradation over time based on state of charge. The LG pouch cells are not as good as the Panasonic/Tesla cells, these are what you will find in the Korean cars also what was in the Chevy bolt where they had to recall every car over battery pack fire risk. I assume this is the reason that GM is now making their own batteries in the US, their new ultium battery and ev platform. It is yet to be seen how quickly they will degrade, but like I said before I won’t be surprised if Kona trips are out of the question in 5-6 years especially if they are doing them often enough now.

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Here’s the graph on battery degradation based on various factors of state of charge. As I said before Tesla charges something like $25k for a replacement battery and it effectively totals the car. If I’m going to be spending $60-70k on a Silverado EV I want to know I can make the battery last well over 10 years. Of course with gas prices I should get something like $30k back driving on solar over that time. So it all makes sense. Green and ev cars are the future and we are moving there, the market is buying every Tesla and there’s no longer a tax credit.. It’s important I think to keep people informed about the honest reality of EV ownership so they can make a good decision. I suspect most people on this forum if looking for a new car would be best served by a $25k Kia that will get near 40 mpg, if they want to spend a little more they can get a hybrid and get 50 mpg, for some including myself with a large solar system EV makes sense, I can’t wait to replace my truck with the Silverado EV, after I hustle up a LOT of money up front. But I know what’s involved and there’s a reason my wife’s car is a plug-in hybrid that commutes mostly on solar EV but can drive right around the island on gas if necessary.

US CO2 emissions continue to fall year after year since about 2010, but we should make sure not to make mistakes along to way. I think the fact that we are buying billions of dollars of oil from Russia every month right now and that Coal use is way up in the past year is a mistake caused by an overzealous agenda.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

at the edges. Should people simply not be allowed to make lifestyle choices 

Isn’t that always how it’s been when people moved to the frontier?  When a cowboy in the Old West rode into town did he belly up to the bar at the saloon and complain the winding, rattlesnake infested trail to his ranch wasn’t as good as the dirt roads in town?  Or how when he wanted to catch a stagecoach he had trouble getting to the Wells Fargo station?  Still needs a horse to get there?

It’s the frontier.

[knieft]

Some information on battery degradation. Tesla using Panasonic technology same as Toyota is the best in the business, averaging 10% capacity loss after 10 years.

Tesla uses 18650 lithium cells and Toyota uses nickel-metal hydride battery cells. Not sure what "Panasonic technology" refers to or how it would make the batteries similar...but I agree that Toyota has the battery pack figured out, even upping the warranty to 120 months/150k for the Prius. Not as familiar with Tesla...

Cheers,
Kirt

[HawaiiEV]

Toyota uses Panasonic prismatic NIMH in a few hybrid models now, however many models have now switched to lithium ion cells, including the 18 kWh pack in my wife’s car. In the future Toyota is working on solid state batteries as well as newer generations of NIMH. NIMH is ideal for the smaller packs in the hybrids due to their ability to rapidly discharge and recharge with minimal harm, the same cannot be said for lithium packs which suffer degradation from such behavior.

Tesla has also announced they are moving on from 18650 now in the newer models. The original point stands that the Tesla/Toyota Panasonic based battery tech is generally higher regarded then the Korean pouch cells..

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/pan...ar-AAUqGmG

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/112...ts-hybrids

[My 2 cents]

"$25k for a replacement battery and it effectively totals the car."

This raises the question, what happens to the vehicle when it reaches the end of it’s life?

If these vehicle are basically worthless after 10 years, give or take, then what kind of recycling has to happen?  For the whole vehicle, not just the batteries.

I did a quick search on recycling EVs and all I could find was that battery recycling hasn’t quite been figured out yet and is still difficult.  Nothing on the vehicle itself.

So what do you do with your 10 year old dead EV?  You can’t sell it.  You probably can’t even give it away.  With only a 10 year lifespan, I would expect that at some point the junk yards won’t even take them. 

I have a 26 year old truck that still runs good and doesn’t even look that bad.  I should wash it.  How many of the EVs on the road today will still be on the road in 26 years?  Will an EV owner have junked 2, 3, 4 or more vehicles during the lifespan of a gas powered vehicle?

I’m really hoping to be corrected on most of this because it looks like an impending disaster to me.