John Oliver Last Week Tonight - Hawaii

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Maybe, just maybe, to work in the quarry was a gifted position

Maybe.  Do you have any evidence of that?
Otherwise the reality is it was cold even in summer, mining anything by hand is laborious backbreaking work, laborers were separated from family for probably months at a time.  Family was important to Hawaiians. 
The food was probably not that great by the time it was dragged up the mountain, although admittedly the natural refrigeration probably helped. Maybe it was even bland?

a gifted position, highly exalted, open to only a select few, and revered throughout society..

I would point out that the only comparable work at that elevation throughout Hawaiian history is the astronomical research conducted in the present day.  Can you think of anything else that has occurred for an extended period on Mauna Kea, Mauna Loa, or Haleakala?  Other than destruction of the native sandalwood forest?

[MyManao]

Maybe.  Do you have any evidence of that?

Plenty... there's adze all over the place. What have you contributed, Edge?

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Plenty... there's adze all over the place.

I don’t think anyone disputes there’s adze all over the place. The question was, by what method did adze get all over the place? Perhaps you could point out a sustainable, worker friendly, well compensated mine operation somewhere in the world today, or for that matter throughout history?

[ironyak]

HPE - Perhaps you could point out a sustainable, worker friendly, well compensated mine operation somewhere in the world today, or for that matter throughout history?

The Philippines has a long history of indigenous small-scale & communal gold mining that extends to this day.
https://www.iwgia.org/en/news/5255-phili...llera.html
"In the song, Balitok (literal meaning gold) represents the spirit guardian of the gold. He teaches Gatan, the traditional miner, to fight greed and to respect nature so that he may continue to benefit from it. Through the centuries, the Indigenous Peoples developed their own customary practices of small-scale mining and gold processing, which are rudimentary but regulated and sustainable. There are customary rules to protect the land and to share blessings. Rituals are performed and rules and regulations are strictly followed to ensure the safety of the miners. Work and wealth are equitably shared by the community. Men, women and children partake in the work of mining and processing the ore and all share in the profits generated." (lots more interesting details at link about how this work and its resulting wealth functions culturally and how imposed large-scale Western mining practices are impacting it)

Given the importance of song and chant in Hawaiian culture, as well as common heritage with the Philippines to Lapita culture, it doesn't seem like a huge stretch to imagine historical Hawaiians having similar ritual and reverence for related mining activities. Do we know for sure, of course not, and probably never will, but that leaves open many possibilities worth considering.

With your interests HPE, I would guess that you've likely read Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn, and possibly its sequels? Maybe more recently, The Dawn of Everything by Graeber and Wengrow? (if not, the Wikipedia summary is pretty good). If so, the understanding that some cultures have very different conceptions of the world and their role in it should lend itself to recognize the diversity of human thought and societal arrangements that differ substantially, maybe even essentially, from the Western tradition. What it means to be human and in relation to each other and the world is not a fixed concept.

MyManao - there's adze all over the place. What have you contributed
That's an interesting question to consider - what artifacts has one made that will endure? Maybe some stone walls and planting beds? Or if the jungle reclaims everything, maybe some pockets of peppers and ka choi, maybe a few types of fruit and ulu trees that manage to feed the wild pigs and yet still sustain themselves?

Does one apply their efforts to projects with longevity and value like those on the mauna that once crafted adze? What mark will one ultimately leave in deep time?

[Punatang]

Perhaps you could point out a sustainable, worker friendly, well compensated mine operation somewhere in the world today


If it supports sustainability is it sustainable?  By definition you are tearing up the earth but if that is OK then I will point you to JRVMF.  Right now it's paying alohas but that can change any day now.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

YThe Philippines has a long history of indigenous small-scale & communal gold 

Your link states they have been mining since the 10th century, but there’s no source I can find that shows how it’s known mining goes back that far.  If there is a source, or we accept that it’s true without evidence, then I would ask, is there a Hawaiian source for how adze may have been mined as a community? Songs? Chants? Hula?

the diversity of human thought and societal arrangements that differ substantially,

Yes, just as some human thought and societal arrangements are similar.  It doesn’t prove that Western ways and Hawaiian methods of mining are different simply because sometimes certain aspects are different.  When there’s no record it can’t definitely be determined one way or the other, can it?

[ironyak]

HPE - Your link states they have been mining since the 10th century, but there’s no source I can find that shows how it’s known mining goes back that far.
I'd start with the primary sources from here - lots of archeological evidence of pre-colonial indigenous gold mining, crafting, and trading. Wikipedia - Gold in early Philippine history
From ref [1] - "This exhibition presents spectacular works of gold primarily discovered over the past forty years on the Philippine islands of Luzon, the Visayas, and Mindanao. The regalia, jewelry, ceremonial weapons, and ritualistic and funerary objects attest to the recently uncovered evidence of prosperity and achievement of Philippine polities that flourished between the tenth and thirteenth centuries, long before the Spanish discovered and colonized the region."

HPE - When there’s no record it can’t definitely be determined one way or the other, can it?
Of course, which I also said. The point is that believing adze mining and crafting in Hawaii must have been grueling indentured servitude is also just an assumption based in your own cultural framework and that some indigenous cultures show other ritual, communal, and personally fulfilling ways of approaching this type of labor that may also apply (which you asked to know about?)

If you haven't read Dawn of Everything, it is quite worth the time IMHO to get a better sense of more recent archeology finds demonstrating the great flexibility of human societal arrangements that run contrary to the usual history of civilization as written by the victors and on display in Western museums which has a certain self-serving bias to say the least.

[Punatang]

PS:  The "Menehune" did, may possibly have accomplished, many things that were appropriated, thought to have been achieved, by later arrivals.  Maybe.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

believing adze mining and crafting in Hawaii must have been grueling indentured servitude is also just an assumption based …

… on the maxim “when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras.
Almost all mining was grueling servitude for the workers.  There may have been exceptions, a zebra or two, maybe.

We also have an example of how Hawaiians removed a commodity from the mountain, and who benefited.  Sandalwood.  The way it was harvested with forced labor, and proceeds went to the ali’i is in records kept by Hawaiians.  Does this prove that adze was mined in a similar fashion?  Maybe, especially if your argument is that cultures have differences, that they have specific ways in which their society operates.

It may not be that the haole mind can’t fathom how another culture sees things differently. It may be that some haole minds don’t read or won’t accept the existing written historical record left by another culture.

[MyManao]

the reality is it was cold even in summer, mining anything by hand is laborious backbreaking work, laborers were separated from family for probably months at a time...

My goodness, Edge, do you not see the assumptions your position requires? 

The point is you're trying to squeeze a round into a square, or some other you won't get it as long as you hold onto the assumption the rest of the world thinks like you. Otherwise, you'd realize the staff by which you suggest we measure the differences is bias to one end of the spectrum of possibilities. So much so it doesn't encompass most of them. So, as a staff, it fails.

I really think you'd benefit, and I believe I suggested this before so be patient with me, from contemplating the role one's mother tongue plays in the formation, the actual physical formation, of their fundamental neural paths. And how these in turn determine one's world view and how all things in their life unfolds. You'll remember I suggested reading the works of Gary Snyder on the subject.. and one of his more recent articles Language goes Two Ways. And then, from that perspective, consider the differences between the Hawaiian language and English. They are not even remotely similar.. 

And then, with that in mind, we might consider how limited our perception of the Hawaiian's past is. You can weigh and measure all you want but without the data your system requires it's all speculation. And, you know, I haven't seen any, in writing, attempt to capture what it was to be a part of the team? Family? Ohana? that worked the adze. I did spend a night up there huddled in a small cave opening blocked from the wind and surrounded by a massive amount rock chips so as to imagine.. but what do I know? Nothing.. other than to approach it all with an open mind not clouded and misdirected by my own assumptions.

But then, you really ain’t all that different from all those that have mucked stuff up with their assumptions. Just look how screwed up the whole astronomy issue is. White man thinks they have a good thing, and yet they can’t figure out how to communicate with other’s that say otherwise, and their egos won’t let them see it, no matter how hard they try.. so they strut around thinking omg nobody understands me when in fact it's them that lacks comprehension..