Hawaii efforts to address the climate emergency

[MyManao]

How can the end user of a product (oil) sue the producer of that product?

Are you asking this seriously, Obie, or just being flippant?

I sell you snake oil, call it the elixir of life, and you grow green warts and die. I knew it was snake oil, for god's sake I had the stuff studied and omg the results, even snakes no like that shit, and still I pedal the good ol' elixir of life.

So, what are you saying, I can walk? I knew it was snake oil but because you're just a gullible ol' dumbass I am free to sell you crap no matter? Really? Is that your version of the American dream? Stiff the suckers, frickin' destroy the planet, it doen't matter as long as you got yours?

Really, are you serious?

[Obie]

HOTPE and MM, you both left out "and continue to use it."

Yeah I'm serious. If the State is going to sue someone for selling a product that causes climate change, they should discontinue using it.

You guys need to start walking or riding bicycles.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

If the State is going to sue someone for selling a product

Products are phased out.  Asbestos was used in many products for years after it was discovered it caused mesothelioma.  Lead remained in gas, paint, solder…

Hawaii is in the process of phasing out gas and oil.


Will the state of Hawaii sue the volcano next?

Do the volcanoes have legal standing in a court?  Or a bank account at First Hawaiian?

[Durian Fiend]

Hawaii's effect on climate change is minute compared to the rest of the world. I agree that everyone should fight climate change, but adding more taxes harms local companies...

Yes but the effects of climate change are the subject of mitigation efforts. Arguably these are no more minute here than anywhere else, except for the far north.   

The cruise lines of course aren't local but ancillary businesses are. 

On the subject of suing oil companies for deceiving the public, I don't see how this could be successful when the major players have admitted that climate change is real and caused by human activities that include burning their product.

[ironyak]

For those that are perpetually reading impaired (or maybe, as suggested, just pro grifting?) - Governor Green said, "holding the fossil fuel industry responsible for deceptive conduct". This is the same historical pattern as with Big Tobacco, which also engaged in a long-running cover-up that ultimately caught up to them. Shouldn't come as much of a surprise as many of the same legal firms that worked for Big Tobacco also worked for Big Oil.

Lying to the public and your investors for decades tends to have legal consequences - unless the White House prefers to interfere with state lawsuits, that the Supreme Court declined to stop, and pick winners and losers?

TomK - And seriously, what will the $100K million be used for in reality, even if it's a realistic estimate? At some point, you'll price out the people who make a substantial economic contribution to the state.
$100 Billion would go a long way! ;) But regardless of the math, seems to make sense that everyone should pay to clean up the messes they make and cruise ships make some of the biggest messes.

Fiend - Mitigation? Ha!
Yeah, better wording would have been "mitigating the impacts of climate change" as the focus of the Hawaii fund is on reducing beach erosion, improving drainage, etc - basically trying to reshape the infrastructure to better handle increasingly severe events. Which is more costly, and doesn't actually rectify the underlying problem - but, hey, at least it is more costly! ;)

Manao - Seems like a perfect time to talk secession..
Them there is fighting words (or some unknown form of Mother May I?) - "When, therefore, [Hawaii] became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State... There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States."

Some of us sticking around for the (hopefully) longer term would prefer to see something meaningful done to address this situation. Or the powers that be can continue to do nothing and just let nature sort it out. I'm sure that'll be great for everyone!

[MyManao]

Them there is fighting words..

It looks as though we have come to a point in the road where both influential haoles and native Hawaiians may have common interests that if taken together suggest we could stand on our own, and divorce ourselves from the Union. 

Of course there are way more obstacles than could be overcome unless the will of the people were so invested. And that.. today.. right now.. would be a hard sell.

But, keep in mind, the rallying cry for the American Revolution was "no taxation without representation” and the way the Union was formed was by opposing sides recognizing a common foe and banding together to overcome them.

[TomK]

TomK - And seriously, what will the $100K million be used for in reality, even if it's a realistic estimate? At some point, you'll price out the people who make a substantial economic contribution to the state.

$100 Billion would go a long way! But regardless of the math, seems to make sense that everyone should pay to clean up the messes they make and cruise ships make some of the biggest messes.

We're not talking about $100 billion, apologies for the typo. I agree that companies should clean up their mess, but I'm not sure adding more taxes to tourists, our most important economic contribution, is the best option.

[ironyak]

TomK - I agree that companies should clean up their mess...
As cruise ships coming to Hawaii are the ones making the mess, then that would mean they, and their customers, should be the ones paying to clean it up, right? Why should other people be burdened with paying to clean up pollution that they did not make? Talk about taxation without representation! (now extend this to inter-generational considerations to understand why the kids are not alright with the mess that is being pushed off to them)

MM - have common interests that if taken together suggest we could stand on our own, and divorce ourselves from the Union
It actually seems like California, not the Hawaii or Texas sovereignty movements, is farthest along in considering how a legal exit might work. Or there are regional efforts like Cascadia movements that look at bioregional divides, similar to ahupua'a in Hawaii, to create more sustainable localities and communities.

Not sure, if or how, such changes are achieved, and whether it takes people pushing the process, or it happening as a natural result from a weakening of the "political bands which have connected them with another", or just as a monetary necessity as it becomes increasingly untenable to keep bailing out state after state from climate induced damages, such as the fires in Lahaina and LA, but do agree there is in something floating on the wind with distinct hints of political separation.

And hey, with no more nation to butt in on local affairs, this forum would always be free from national politics! Make Punaweb, and Puna, Hawaii-only again! ;)

[TomK]

TomK - I agree that companies should clean up their mess...
As cruise ships coming to Hawaii are the ones making the mess, then that would mean they, and their customers, should be the ones paying to clean it up, right? Why should other people be burdened with paying to clean up pollution that they did not make? Talk about taxation without representation! (now extend this to inter-generational considerations to understand why the kids are not alright with the mess that is being pushed off to them)

I understand your argument, but I'm not sure cruise passengers will. I don't know what the answer or solution is, but at some point, there's a limit that, if reached, will discourage people from visiting Hawaii. Some might love that idea, but the State's economy relies upon tourism. Every time you add or increase taxes it pisses some people off. In this case, I don't have a study to cite, I'm just trying to point out that at some point, our government might do more discouraging than is good for them--or us.

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PS. It would be nice if the Hawaii bureaucracy would allow a road to be rebuilt to the Mauna Loa Observatory so that scientists can continue their work without all the distractions they currently have. All this political crap about taxes is one thing, but if you want Hawaii to be a major contribitor to climate change research, bring out a check book and pay for the road to MLO to be fixed.

"More than two years after road access and electrical power to the Mauna Loa Observatory was cut off by lava flows, NOAA staff continue to make critical measurements of the atmosphere and other environmental variables at the remote site.

In 2023, observatory staff installed solar panels at the site and resumed some measurements, including the independent carbon dioxide monitoring programs run by the Global Monitoring Laboratory and Scripps Institution of Oceanography, as well as other atmospheric measurements.

Construction of a temporary road to access the observatory site is anticipated to begin in summer 2025."

https://gml.noaa.gov/obop/mlo/

[ironyak]

Complaints "political crap about taxes" plus government bureaucracy that can apparently be nullified by opening a check book equals some strange cognitive dissonance.

Unfortunately, I don't have clearing-tons-of-lava-and-restoring-paved-road money to spare right now, but how about I put a little into the fund, and you do so as well, and everyone chips in a bit (some who can provide more probably should, along with those contributing to the issue being studied) and as a collective we help pay to address a common problem? I know it all sounds a bit taxing, but at least it isn't political crap. ;)

Hopefully MLO can get back to their old digs pretty soon and continue their work there (which they are still doing in the meantime) and when (or if) we ever see snow at that elevation again we can take a field trip up to pay our respects to the impact of their climate research.