God

[TomK]

My apologies. 

I now look forward to the continued TomK, MyManao & Ironyak God/No God/Religion/Pele debate.

You're too late for that. MyManao just keeps making stuff up, and ironyak is stuck arguing that the existence of a god is falsifiable. Neither idea is worth pursuing because neither has merit.

[MyManao]

.
In my quest to share my beliefs, which in the first place was started in response to Tomk’s disbelief, of god, I tried several avenues, all which Tom, who among everyone was the chief defender of atheism, and since I shared a “belief" he, seemingly, wasn’t willing to grabble with just what I was saying but rather felt he occupied the high ground just by lumping all belief into his own concepts of what others believe rather than listen to the details…

And then, earlier today for an entirely different reason, I came upon an article (which is kind of old but still ain't the question at hand timeless?) entitled Einstein on God and Religion in which among a whole lot of other stuff it has a few expressions of what I was trying to impart to our chief atheist, who seems to think that to be a scientist one can not believe in god. So, hopefully Einstein’s words will cut through the fog where mine didn’t..

Here’s a few of Einstein's simply expressions of awe and wonder at the mystery of creation and the supreme divine intelligence behind it..

For instance, this quote cuts right to the chase, and is pretty much exactly what I was saying.. ”My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”

He also expresses this same sentiment in response to a little girl named Phyllis who asked him if scientists pray.

Here is his response:

“Dear Phyllis,

I have tried to respond to your question as simply as I could. Here is my answer.

Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people.

For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e., by a wish addressed to a supernatural being.

However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of thee laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith.

All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.

But, on the other hand, everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naïve.

I hope this answers your question.

Best wishes,

Albert Einstein”
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[MyManao]

I was wonder, why do some humans need to belittle others? Why isn't the mutual support of others enough? Even if they differ than one's own what's the point? Why do some, seemingly, have an unquenchable need to find fault with others as if doing so demonstrates their superiority? This question was spurred on by a recent series of posts on another thread here in which a few exchanged an appreciation of an idea and another felt the need to belittle, and then when shown to be nonsensical instead of letting it go they doubled down. And I wondered, what is it about this need to always find fault with others?

So I did a search.. starting with the notion that maybe some quote of Gary Zukav’s, or another of his ilk, would soothe the itch, and I came upon an article that doesn’t address the concern directly, but in the larger context says so much, and does it in a way that brings us back to the question asked and wrestled with through this thread.. 

From.. https://medium.com/@OllyAlexander/a-scie...8076c0164c

A Scientific, Psychological, Spiritual, and Secular Analysis of The Lord’s Prayer

Which begins..

This article is for all of you. I truly believe that prayer may benefit everyone, including those who are not religious. Spirituality is not religion. Saying prayers, along with meditation, is part of my daily spiritual practicein order to promote emotional, psychological, and physical well-being, as well as harmony and balance in my life. Prayer promotes growth, expanded consciousness, awakening, and provides access to limitless awareness and infinite possibility. Prayer is transformative to he who prays. Prayer is how to link your Soul to its Source. Each time you connect with your Higher Power, you are heard, touched, and changed for the best. Prayer is essential to Self-realisation and Enlightenment.

Socrates, the great philosopher, said that the unexamined life is not worth living. Prayer and meditation are the most superior tools available for authentic self-examination. Prayer has been lauded by the great philosophers, scientists, and significant figures throughout history including Hippocrates, Martin Luther, Abraham Lincoln, Carl Jung, Albert Einstein, Soren Kierkegaard, Thich Nhat Hahn, Ramana Maharshi, Viktor E. Frankl, and Mahatma Gandhi, as well as the greatest authors such as William Blake, Franz Kafka, Victor Hugo, and William Shakespeare. Aside from their ‘day jobs’ all of these figures were spiritual Masters. And there are many, many more. If prayer is good enough for them, it’s good enough for me.

And this, as I brought this thread back up, reminded me of my earlier post directly above this one in which Albert Einstein himself articulated thoughts very similar to the ones I set out in my OP. So I figured hey this article, linked and in a small part quoted above, says it too, and goes on to say more. And says it in a context that broadens on what Einstein said, in the same way I felt Einstein in his simple prose broadened upon what I said..

[randomq]

I believe intention is a powerful thing. Whether you believe the powerful entity listening to you is God or your own subconscious, there is definitely an effect when you clearly outline and envision what you want, and commit to achieving it.

[TomK]

I was wonder, why do some humans need to belittle others? 

I would have thought you would know the answer to that, given your vile comments to others. 

As for a god and Einstein, what about "God does not play dice"? How does this fit into claiming that Einstein's thoughts on a god should be taken seriously, given modern physics? That quote and the one you use come from around 90 years ago. In the meantime, the observatories on Mauna Kea use quantum physics every day to make discoveries about our universe without a need for a god to direct them. Einstein even found quantum mechanics in his own work when he discovered the photoelectric effect. It's now used in everyday objects such as your phones, TVs, and computers.

[Durian Fiend]

...Prayer has been lauded by the great philosophers, scientists, and significant figures throughout history including Hippocrates, Martin Luther, Abraham Lincoln, Carl Jung, Albert Einstein...

And this, as I brought this thread back up, reminded me of my earlier post directly above this one in which Albert Einstein himself articulated thoughts very similar to the ones I set out in my OP...

"..For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e., by a wish addressed to a supernatural being..."


It doesn't appear to me that Einstein was singing the praises of prayer.

This reminds me of the FFRF award.  https://ffrf.org/category/outreach/award...ke-prayer/

[TomK]

...Prayer has been lauded by the great philosophers, scientists, and significant figures throughout history including Hippocrates, Martin Luther, Abraham Lincoln, Carl Jung, Albert Einstein...

And this, as I brought this thread back up, reminded me of my earlier post directly above this one in which Albert Einstein himself articulated thoughts very similar to the ones I set out in my OP...

"..For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e., by a wish addressed to a supernatural being..."

It doesn't appear to me that Einstein was singing the praises of prayer.

This reminds me of the FFRF award.  https://ffrf.org/category/outreach/award...ke-prayer/

Have to agree. Einstein said nothing about prayer, and prayer is no evidence of a god. We've also seen that "Pele" took very little notice of offerings that were left and took out houses, no matter what. You often hear about the "power of prayer". The evidence suggests that, at best, it offers comfort and hope, and possibly emotional support, but there's no evidence at all that any prayer has actually been answered by a supernatural being. So, of course, research scientists are inclined to think that events are not influenced by prayer. There's simply no evidence for it.  

Finally, we have this from MyManao":

"And this, as I brought this thread back up, reminded me of my earlier post directly above this one in which Albert Einstein himself articulated thoughts very similar to the ones I set out in my OP. So I figured hey this article, linked and in a small part quoted above, says it too, and goes on to say more. And says it in a context that broadens on what Einstein said, in the same way I felt Einstein in his simple prose broadened upon what I said."

That seems rather egotistical to me if not downright wrong. I've yet to find anything in what Einstein wrote or said that agrees with MyManao's comments. If there's something specific he needs to point out, go ahead, but I don't think even "Pele" was ever mentioned by Einstein. What Einstein did broadened earlier research about relativity. He came up with the theory of special relativity and, many years later, updated the theory to include acceleration, i.e., gravity was included. Both theories hold together well these days, but he never developed a theory of god, and I wish people would stop mangling his work with some idea that it supports a supernatural god, because it doesn't.

[MyManao]

I believe intention is a powerful thing.  Whether you believe the powerful entity listening to you is God or your own subconscious, there is definitely an effect when you clearly outline and envision what you want, and commit to achieving it.

Interestingly, that is the point where the known, the stuff science likes.. repeatable results in the physical world.. meets the unknown. Which is, in essence, anything science can’t pin down and dissect. The stuff they can’t weigh and measure. And, oddly enough, it’s something that has been studied, although obliquely, ad nauseam.

The Placebo Effect is an awesome example of the power of focusing the mind, the power of our mind’s ability to influence an outcome. Of course in the sacred halls of the church it’s not referred to with as mundane a word, but still in the scientific world it has been studied far beyond most other subjects in that it is the silent star of countless studies. The baseline, the control group, the folks that get the fake one so as to test the efficacy of the thing being studied. The silent partner in all kinds of scientifically based studies ends up proving that our minds have powers science has yet to grok.

From Harvard Medical School at.. https://www.health.harvard.edu/newslette...ebo-effect

Your mind can be a powerful healing tool when given the chance. The idea that your brain can convince your body a fake treatment is the real thing - the so-called placebo effect - and thus stimulate healing has been around for millennia. Now science has found that under the right circumstances, a placebo can be just as effective as traditional treatments 

And this study published on MDPI at.. https://www.mdpi.com/2305-6320/12/1/5

The placebo effect has been widely documented across various medical conditions, demonstrating its ability to influence both subjective and objective outcomes. Placebo responses can significantly improve symptoms in these different conditions, such as pain, Parkinson’s disease, depression, anxiety, and addiction. Psychological mechanisms, particularly the power of patient expectations, appear to play a central role, with neurobiological evidence supporting the activation of dopamine, endogenous opioids, and endocannabinoids in response to placebo interventions.

And those are but two examples of thousands that document the power of our minds.. the window into more than our physical interpretation of the universe we find ourselves in. Sheesh, doctors, anecdotally, repeatedly say prayer encourages a better outcome. And interestingly, few prescribe it. And why they are not prescribing placebos rather than, in so many cases, the toxic stuff they do prescribe has always been an interesting question, to me.

I think their point is not to deceive. Whereas the placebo, the way it is used, is cloaked in deception. But why not figure out how to liberate it, get it out of the closet.. teach this power to everyone, at school.. in kindergarten?

Isn’t the placebo and prayer one and the same thing?

And still, with mountains of data, some resist. God, or forget the word god, just the mystical world, is too much for them. They are always contrary, never accepting.. not open to discussion, but rather ridicule. Of course that speaks volumes of the power of their minds to protect them from the loss of control they fear. Which is really the point.. god, which I have barely defined as any more than all and everything, and having some system that is greater than our puny little minds can grasp, is revealed, in at least a small way, by the power of the placebo. The fact that we are more than the sum of our physical parts. The power of our minds beyond that which those that demand a rigid physical explanation for everything, can see.

Of course, when one uses the term “god” it is interpreted by the listener as per their use of the term. A religious adherent may think it means a deity, and could go to great lengths describing in minute detail every aspect of.. where all I am saying is there’s a lot more at play here than physical science is capable of, or seemingly interested in, acknowledging. Instead, at least our one example of such a ridged interpretation of realty, likes to dis and belittle anyone that says otherwise. Sheesh, that’s what he sets his intension on.. that's his prayer.. being an asshole. I say god, and he demands I mean religion. Where I never mentioned, never equated one with the other. Yet he lives in so much fear of the unknown as to need, with every fiber of his being, to resist even an open discussion of such matters. Of any matter he can’t control.

And yes.. call it anything, the power of our intention, the focusing of our minds, prayer, a placebo, is but a small window into our true selves.. if only we'd focus our intention on it..

[Rob Tucker]

For me, considering the fact that humankind is just beginning to have a light grasp on what might be called the known universe and zero grasp on what might be called the unknown universe, my little brain can find no reason to reject anyone else's opinions out of hand.

Assume the best and ask questions....

[TomK]

I've no problem with that, but when science and what scientists say are misused as evidence for a god, then either the poster is deliberately posting misleading information or simply doesn't understand science and the scientific method.  Other than those believing in a god or some deity like Pele, look at flat-earth believers and how they mistreat evidence. It's not much different from religious people making claims that science shows there's a supernatural being that created the universe (or volcanoes), and then watches over everything. I don't care if someone believes in a god; I care about people making stuff up in the name of science. Just read MyManao's post above and look how many times he makes things up, it's his opinion or conclusions without evidence. They are straw men.

I hope everyone here has watched the old movie "Inherit the Wind" which tells the story of the Scopes Trial.

https://youtu.be/jGt79HUVBoU?si=ViA0sDaB7DIxxG40

This is not posted as evidence, just to help make people think.