UKIRT To End Maunakea Operations September 15

[MyManao]

complete with cut and pasted responses from a vacationing PunaWebber?

I think the information came from a UofH press release:

https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2026/07/02/u...issioning/

Actually, Edge, you will have to try harder than that.. 

Seriously, do a search on that press release, and tell me where in it you find the phrase..

Closing UKIRT early has nothing to do with Hawaiian claims

Or even the word "closing"

It's pure, as our PW Bar 'n Grill consul points out, "Codswallop!"

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

search on that press release, and tell me where in it you find the phrase..

Yes, some, not all, of the information was mentioned in the press release.  Durian Fiend wrote what he wrote, maybe cut what he cut, pasted what he pasted.  He knows what he wrote, I simply read some of the information elsewhere, in the press release so I noted that.  I’m not going to argue with anything in his comment. Some was subjective, sure, most seemed factual with the info noted available in other sources.

It’s certainly a loss for science, and a loss for Big Island.

[Obie]

"Aging facilities and funding challenges, especially given the expiration of the UH master lease in 2033, in addition to the obligations contained in the UH Master Plan, led to the decision to end science operations. "

Weren't the obligations contained in the master plan negotiated with the Hawaiians ?

I thought they offered to decommission several telescopes in exchange for the TMT.

[MyManao]

It’s certainly a loss for science, and a loss for Big Island.

I thought they offered to decommission several telescopes in exchange for the TMT.

If I remember right they did, three. The first two are gone, and the third is UKIRT.

No boogymen, no omg were going back to sticks and stones, no more than an agreement to move forward to more, and better, and do it within the framework of the original intent. So many scopes on the mountain. 

And to think, what the TMT, finally, came to is what I have been saying since the very first time we discussed all this.. talk with the land owners. And look, the TMT gets it. Finally!

So yeah, we had an agreement, a few old scopes for a fantastic new one. Let's just hope, and I do, that the new one will get to be built before ground based astronomy is obsolete...

If not, and if I was steering the TMT folk's money I would suggest, put it in space. It could do so much more there than it would ever do here. Yeah they could have a more hands on relationship with it on Earth, but omg have you seen what the WEBB scope can do? Closeups of our own solar system to the furthest reaches ever seen, it's rewriting our understanding of the stars. And, you know, if a guy showed up to the folks that built it and asked how much they want to build another I bet it would be pennies on the dollar compared to the first go round. In fact, if they put ten, twelve, of them in orbit around the sun viewing in every direction.. we'd be done with all this silliness already. And our mauna could live in peace without all that nonsense between one guy's idea of right and another's wrong.

But as it is the decommissioning of the UKIRT says something about its worth. It isn't the best, the most, the every which way better than all the rest. It's an old expendable scope that was agreed to be decommissioned along with a few others to make way for the TMT. This has been stated, and it's been stated repeatedly. In fact, in the University of Hawaii System Annual Report, on the Mauna Kea Lands, submitted to the 2025 State Legislative Session which can be read in whole here, it says in part..

On September 27, 2017, the BLNR issued its 271-page Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order containing 1,070 Findings of Fact and 512 Conclusions of Law, for the CDUP allowing the construction and operation of TMT. On October 30, 2018, the Hawaiʻi Supreme Court affirmed the CDUP after various parties appealed. The process for obtaining the CDUP approval took approximately seven years from the permit application’s initial submission in 2010, including two contested cases, several judicial appeals, and two Hawaiʻi Supreme Court decisions. Parties continue to challenge the TMT project.

And further it clarifies..

Pursuant to the CDUP for the TMT project, the BLNR imposed special conditions regarding the decommissioning of telescopes on Maunakea, including the following:

Special Condition 10. The University will decommission three telescopes permanently, as soon as reasonably possible, and no new observatories will be constructed on those sites. This commitment will be legally binding on the University and shall be included in any lease renewal or extension proposed by the University for Mauna Kea.

Special Condition 11. Notwithstanding any lease renewal or extension, consistent with the Decommissioning Plan, at least two additional facilities will be permanently decommissioned by December 31, 2033, including the Very Long Baseline Array antenna and at least one additional observatory.

This is an agreement made, and codified by our State Supreme Court, almost ten years ago. And in case you missed it, back then they said as I highlighted in bold above..

The University will decommission three telescopes permanently, as soon as reasonably possible

So, no, UKIRT is not the best thing since mom and apple pie. It's a very old scope that has done wonders.. and still it has been slated to be decommissioned for almost a decade already. Which is to say of all the functioning observatories it's the most expendable. Not by my words, not by the other guy's words, but by the folks that really know, the folks that run the place.

And you know, it could be said, the sooner it goes the better the chances for the TMT to be built. UKIRT's hanging on is probably making it harder for TMT to gain the traction it needs with the local community to succeed.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

If not, and if I was steering the TMT folk's money I would suggest, put it in space.

The TMT is called the thirty meter telescope because it is thirty meters across. The largest rocket, Starship is 9 meters across. It has yet to fly without blowing up somewhere along its trajectory.

The TMT building is even wider than 30 meters. It would look look like a mushroom cap on a stem if put on top of Starship. Ever see that configuration sent to space? No, it has never happened and it will never happen.

I’d draw you a picture but I think you get the idea.

[kalakoa]

Weren't the obligations contained in the master plan negotiated with the Hawaiians ?

I ask, again: which "the" Hawaiians? Are some of them authorized to speak for all?

[Durian Fiend]

Here's Tom's edited response to MyManao's post:

"..UKIRT was targetted for decomissioning years ago as it was an easy target. It had nothing to do with science, it was all about funding. Yes, there was some agreement that five telescope should be decomissioned by 2033, UKIRT was targetted because there was only one funding agency. Now, that funding agency has screwed up (USNO), put the IfA (Institute for Astronomy) in Hawaii in inrecoverable debt supporting UKIRT, and that is the reason UKIRT will end operations this September.

It has nothing to do with the TMT which stands no chance of being built here anyway...

UKIRT outperforms the other two IfA telescopes on Mauna Kea by all metrics, so choosing to end UKIRT operations has nothing to do with it not being able to provide science, it has to do with IfA funding, politics in Washingiton DC and and reduced funding for science in general by the US government...

I've attached the most recent report by Dr Dennis Crabtree about observatory performance...

... Of the three observatories the UH/IfA owns, UKIRT, IRTF, and the UH-88, UKIRT still outperforms them in terms of science output, impact, and cost-per-discovery. The UH-88 doesn't even make the list; it's not worth including. The reason the UH-88 telescope is being kept despite doing very little science is that it occupies the best site on the mountain. Unfortunately, it doesn't exploit those conditions, but UH wants to keep it. It's the most underperforming telescope on the mountain; it can't compete with others, yet it's a bargaining chip for UH..."

If anyone wants to see the report from Dr. Crabtree I could possibly post it....

[Punatang]

Tom posted: If anyone wants to see the report from Dr. Crabtree I could possibly post it....



Welcome back Tom!

I, for one, would be very grateful if you could please post the report from Dr. Crabtree.

[MyManao]

Durian Fiend.. I could possibly post it....

And yet it's insignificant, especially in the light of the fact that IFA made a determination a decade ago that of all those scopes UKIRT is the one to go. Having someone who is wholly bias to the one scope without any impartiality about the matter telling others how his is the greatest does nothing to offset the fact that others, and a lot of them, say his is the most expendable. Seriously, it sounds whiny... par for the course, really.

The TMT is the tradeoff. Everyone loved the idea of the TMT, and yet now that they have to pay for it they're all.. omg the Big island is losing.. science is being screwed.. we're gonna have to use sticks and stones to protect ourselves blah blah blah. When in fact, as I have clearly demonstrated, the writing has been on the wall for a decade. the IFA thinks the UKIRT facility is expendable, and traded it for the TMT. 

Did you all really forget that? Don't you think being told, in 2017, to tear it down asap and then taking nine years to do it is a bit of a stretch? Isn't that a good example of why the Hawaiian community might not trust the astronomy community? In fact, I speculated in an earlier post that keeping UKIRT in place as long as it has been has made it harder to get the local community to appreciate the intent of the astronomy community to stand by their commitments. But I get it, UKIRT was involved in a large project, which I hope is pau, and that is why the scope is being formally terminated now.

Anyways.. why cry about progress when instead one could be happy we're finally moving forward with our commitments to a better future?

And, btw, I think there are other reasons the IFA has opted for UKIRT over the 88", but that's an entirely different story. Maybe bumbai.

ETA: I am not saying all that about UKIRT's productivity is wrong, in fact I suspect it is right. But overall, in the bigger scheme of things, the folks that run the astronomical community, when weighing everything, decided UKIRT is the most expendable. And, they decided it so long ago that any whining about that decision is a bit behind the curve.. by years already.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

If anyone wants to see the report from Dr. Crabtree I could possibly post it....

Yes, please, I’d like to read it.