buildig with permit vs no permit

[terracore]

Does anyone know what the County does once they find you have a unpermit house on your property?

I take it as a given they will assess it and start taxing you on it.

But since it was built without permits, there were no inspections during the build process.
They can only inpsect what they cansee, so all the stuff in the walls and in the slab , etc, can not be inspected.

I read you can apply for an "as built" permit,, but what does that entail?
do they still come out an inspect it and if everyting they can see is code compliant, they sign it off?

Also, do they slap you with penalities?

It was explained to me that unless there is a health, safety, or public welfare component, other than being added to one's property tax bill, the enforcement currently ends with a strongly worded letter. If the construction is still ongoing, it may contain a cease and desist order.  Since the letter specifies the potential for some form of sanction, the owner is responsible for disclosing it to any potential buyers.   Even though the letter is probably going to be the end of it, it scares off buyers and puts downward pressure on the potential resale value the seller can expect, similarly to selling property when title insurance isn't available.  There is already a lot of downward pressure on a price from being unpermitted, adding "and on the county's radar" and "subject to fines and other enforcement action" is probably going to scare most buyers off.  Because it's unpermitted, the pool of buyers is already very limited because financing isn't available, nor is insurance, so it really has every possible knock against it.

The probable work-around is to only build unpermitted on AG land, under 600 feet, and market it as vacant land with an AG structure on it.  If someone complains and an inspector shows up and finds someone living in it, or it has electricity or plumbing, they will determine its an unpermitted residence and not an AG structure.

"It would be 800 ft from the road , no way anyone could see it except from the air"

Yes, that's how they find the structures to tax.

"I don't mind paying taxes on a house, but the process of getting permits and inspections and dealing with trying to get electrians and plumbers to do work that you pay too much for, is what I'm trying to aviod. I figure it would add a year of time to the build to go the permit route."

Think of it as investment- the daughter will be able to sell the property for what it's worth someday and without the avoidable stress of dealing with property with an illegal building on it.  Hopefully this is a long time in the future, and who knows what kind of draconian / dystopian world things will have devolved to.  The government is always granting itself more power, more  surveillance, and more enforcement ability, and taking freedoms and rights away from the people it's supposed to be working for.  Puna is becoming more gentrified, not less.  The Karens will find you. They will complain.  They will speak to the inspector's manager.


I think the relevant section is here: https://www.dpw.hawaiicounty.gov/home/sh...5118570000

[tikicarver]

I can see your point about selling it in the future...

On the other hand,, several years ago when we were shopping for  house on Oahu,, every property we looked at had un-permtted additions or structures.
The listings all said, " square footage does not match county records"
It did not lower the price the sellers were getting. and people were still paying over asking price.
What it did effect was apprasied value.   The appraiser would not count the square footge of unpermited spaces. 
So for example if the listing said 1200 sq ft,, but they were counting the converted car port as part of the total house sq footage.the appraiser would 
say there is only an 800 sq ft house and base the value on that. 
If the appraised value came in lower than asking price, the buyer had to make up the difference in cash because the bank would only loan to the appraised value.

That is differnt sitution than the entire house not being permitted. But it shows there is a lot of unpermitted stuff in Hawaii that still sells.

[terracore]

I can see your point about selling it in the future...

On the other hand,, several years ago when we were shopping for  house on Oahu,, every property we looked at had un-permtted additions or structures.
The listings all said, " square footage does not match county records"
It did not lower the price the sellers were getting. and people were still paying over asking price.
What it did effect was apprasied value.   The appraiser would not count the square footge of unpermited spaces. 
So for example if the listing said 1200 sq ft,, but they were counting the converted car port as part of the total house sq footage.the appraiser would 
say there is only an 800 sq ft house and base the value on that. 
If the appraised value came in lower than asking price, the buyer had to make up the difference in cash because the bank would only loan to the appraised value.

That is differnt sitution than the entire house not being permitted. But it shows there is a lot of unpermitted stuff in Hawaii that still sells.

Unpermitted additions are decided on a "case by case" basis.  It used to be that VA would never loan on a property with an unpermitted anything, even if it was something super minor.  In the last few years they have relented and adopted an approach similar to other lenders, that if the unpermitted change was minor, and the build quality similar to permitted, or if it was so old the test of time has proven it wasn't going to burn down or blow away, the lender might lend on it, but its at the mercy of the appraiser and/or the underwriter.

Example:  Fully permitted, newer home in HPP.  The owners converted a small AG structure (a shed) in the back yard into an Asian-inspired bath house.  So, a soaking tub with hot and cold water coming from hoses from the house.  The appraiser called it an "unpermitted ADU".  What?  Other than the tub there was nothing else in there, and no room for a twin mattress if they wanted to.  No kitchen, no residence amenities of any kind, other than a soaking tub.  Nobody expected it to add any value to the property so that wasn't the issue.  All the underwriter saw was "unpermitted ADU" and pulled the loan a few days before closing.  The property did eventually get a loan on it without having to tear down the "ADU" but it was long, stressful, unnecessary struggle.  It delayed the closing long enough for the buyers, who were selling their own home on Oahu, to store their belongings last minute and scramble to find a place for them and all their animals to live.  Staying in a hotel, motel, Holiday Inn, wasn't an option.  It could have blown the whole deal up, over a serious nothingburger.

Of course, these things aren't an issue if one finds a cash buyer, but that is going to limit the pool of buyers enough a seller is unlikely to get anything close to fair market value compared to a similar property with permits.  At the end of the day, and this is just my opinion, the future value of your property (the financial loss your family will take by having the unpermitted home) will be greater than what you would have spent by getting the permits.  That's what I meant about the permits being an investment.  You can either deal with the stress and frustration of the permitting process now, or bequeath an equal or greater amount of stress and frustration to whoever inherits it.  For most people, going the unpermitted route doesn't eliminate the financial and stressful components of having a home, it just kicks that can down the road, and some people find themselves on that roadway at place in their lives where they are less able to deal with it than they were when they made the original decision. I've heard a lot of stories of regret from people going the unpermitted route, but never any stories from people high fiving themselves on what a great decision they made.  I'm sure those people are out there, but my guess is that most of them haven't had to deal with the consequences yet, or they are in a situation where getting 70% (or whatever, it's a made up figure) of their property's potential value isn't a problem for them.

FWIW, I've done unpermitted things on my property. They won't add any value value and can quickly / easily be undone if they should ever be problem. I think going into unpermitted territory isn't necessarily a bad idea so long as one invests in the "undoing" of it from the onset.

[punikahakaiferret]

"The Karens will find you. They will complain.  They will speak to the inspector's manager."

Because there are always, and will always, be people who refuse to "mind their own damn business".

This is the real problem for now, the hi-res surveillance will come later (or sooner).

That being said, not *everyone* builds (or buys) with an eye toward "resale value". Some people just want what they want, and so build (or buy) what they want, and for that reason, they make it a point to *not* buy or build in an area with nosy invasive over-reaching HOAs and CCRs telling them what they can and cannot do ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY.

But now it seems there are Karens (and Chads) who can't afford to build or buy in such cookie-cutter Stepford places, but want to singlehandedly decide what everyone in their immediate area can or can't do, based on their own standards, even if that "offensive" property WAS THERE FIRST. So they blow the whistle to the county.

This is how I see it...

[kalakoa]

Unpermitted goes well in places like Hawaiian Acres.

Unpermitted works best if you never leave. Unfortunately, life makes other plans.

[randomq]

There is something satisfying and liberating owning your home outright, and not being beholden to a paycheck to have a roof over your head. Also being off-grid and not having huge monthly bills or fridge-spoiling power outages. Also the intangible psychological benefit of living in a home you designed and built as you saw fit. But I concede if I ever get too old for this shit, I won't be able to sell for as much as it's worth (but probably still more than I put into it).

Or if Karen turns me in, I'll tear out the wiring and plumbing and turn it into a combo rooster farm / dog kennel, and absolutely ruin my new neighbor's day and property value. Ag lot, baby!

[punikahakaiferret]

randomq ALL THE WAY!!!

...that is exactly what I'm talking about!

:-D

[terracore]

I agree with all of that. I could play advocatus diaboli on this topic all day long.

When we moved here we had already bought and sold two homes. When I applied for a mortgage here the banking industry was still licking it's wounds from the great recession and the additional regulatory oversight and overreaction that entailed. I got so fed up with the mortgage process I quit it. At one point they asked me who I sold a car to a few months prior. I'm not buying or selling cars and that's none of your business.

So we looked at every unpermitted structure in Puna that met our needs. Not because we were specifically interested in unpermitted, but because they were the only options we could afford without a mortgage. After seeing all our options, I went crawling back to the mortgage broker and told her who I sold our car to, and answered every other retarded question they had.

[Punatang]

I, like terracore, agree with everyone here in the thread where yesterday's Karens are today's Libertarians.  You know who you are.  LOL

Freedumbs right?

[tikicarver]

I think the big negitive of building an unpermited house would be the re-sale value down the road when I'm dead...  
and like others have said, it will shrink the available buyers because most lenders will not lend on an unpermited house....

I am looking at this as a trade study,  it basically comes down to the extra time and money to go the permited route vs the resale value and harder to sell on the back end. Then throw in the risk of "getting caught" by the building dept.
The former I can pretty much estimate, it is what happens if they catch you that I can't calculate. Reading through some of the enforcement documents, that is a big variable. Seems like it could run the scale from,, they just assess current value and start taxing you.... to they want you to open all the walls and prove the plumbing and electrical are all up to code.  Plus as I understand it, you now have to get a license contractors to sign off an "as-built" permit on all of it..
So that means if you get caught, you are paying all the contractor fees you would have paid going permited from the start, but now their are some fines and the it will probably be a PITA to find contractors to sign off..

I would guess the risk of getting caught will increase in the next 10 years as they start using more high tech ways to scan the county. Someone posted they already are use a high resolution airiel photo service that spealizes in providing code enforcemnt to govenement agencies. So it will just be a matter of time before they start finding unpermitted houses. You can look right now on Google Maps and find new structures on a property that were not there in a previuos satillte photos.  So really the risk of getting caught are close to 100%,, the unknown is the time factor. 

The real thing I was trying to avoid is being forced to use a licensed electrican, plumber, solar installer, 
They all add a lot of cost and time to a project. ( if you can even get one to show up....)
If the goal of that rule to make sure things are built to code,  why are you forced to use one if the county has inspectors to see if the project was built to code. There are many of us that are fully capable of building things to code. Most of the time we build better than code. Remember, code is jsut the minimum. Most contractors are just going to build to the min code becasue timeis money for them... Not so for the owner builder. 
So if the project is build to code and the inpsector is happy, why does it have to be done by a licensed guy?

It is ironinc, they will let a owner-build build the entire structure,  but not touch andthing plumbing or electrical...


So I'm thinking the best path forward is to go with permits, but try to find and electician and plumbing contractor that will work with me.
ie.. I do most of the rough in work and they come out to do the final hook ups.  If done right, it would be one day's work for them and they get paid a fee so there is an incentive for them to do it and it is easy money. The trick is to find someone like that...
i was lucky with a job of changing my circuit breaker box on my hosue on Oahu, I found out there was a guy at my job that was a licensed electrician. I did all the work and he signed the permit. Orginally he was going to come out and do some stuff but got tied up with work. So in the end I did everthing.When the final inspector came out, he said, " your electrician does some really nice work"..  I said, yes he does....LOL