Sightseers, “loiterers” in eruption zone

[MarkD]

From HOTPE: "Exactly right. If one of these thrill seekers gets injured in any way, he'll get a lawyer who will claim his client wasn't told it was dangerous..."

Your point is partially true but not completely: With matters like dangerous surf or lava, authorities simply have to make a reasonable effort to warn of the danger. People who sneak around barriers or signs to get access and then get hurt will have little luck making a personal injury claim.

The big problem here isn't danger; it is all the people living in the lava area and CD's preoccupation with getting them out. Lava viewers are a big distraction to CD (though theoretically one viewing site could be set up somewhere).

Unfortunate for everyone that this is not occurring in an area with no homes....

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

With matters like dangerous surf or lava, authorities simply have to make a reasonable effort to warn of the danger.

On Maui a decade or two ago, a swimmer saw a "Dangerous Surf" sign. He went in anyway and was injured. His lawyer claimed the sign weasn't big enough, and if it had been bigger, his client would have realized the surf was more dangerous than a smaller sign implied.

I believe the settlement was for $2 million.

I alternate between thinking of the planet as home — dear and familiar stone hearth and garden — and as a hard land of exile in which we are all sojourners. Today I favor the latter view. The word “sojourner”... invokes a nomadic people’s sense of vagrancy, a praying people’s knowledge of estrangement, a thinking people’s intuition of sharp loss: “For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.” - Annie Dillard

[kalakoa]

authorities simply have to make a reasonable effort to warn of the danger

Imagine a signing ceremony to get your lava expedition pass: lawyers, witnesses, notarized signatures, the whole thing videotaped.

A decade after your lava visit, you develop lung cancer. Were you maybe exposed to something carcinogenic on the lava flow? Only the lawyers will ever know for sure.

[MarkD]

I'm pretty sure in the $2 million shoreline case the defendant was a hotel, not the state. (Makes some difference). Tried to google the case, but couldn't find it. In broad terms this whole business goes something like this:

1. Remote areas that are not parks. If you are hurt by high surf, lava, falling off a cliff, etc., your chances of finding a personal injury lawyer to take this case are virtually nil.

2. Parks. Officials have some obligation to provide safety: lifeguards, closure during dangerous conditions. (Like HVNP is closed). Signs obviously can't be put everywhere; if people sneak in and get hurt, their basis to sue is weak. In Hawaii people evade lifeguards to access high surf all the time.

3. Parks in modified natural environments. Man-made Ahalanui pool is an example. If an elderly person would drown there, a personal injury attorney could claim the features of the pond are unsafe in some fashion, contributing to the drowning. The suit has a fair chance of winning.

(I usually don't fault the personal injury lawyers; they are sharks; that is what they do. All societies have people who prey on or scam the taxpaying public or businesses. The real problem are the legislators who take bribes from these lawyers to defeat any legislation that would rein in these lawsuits. Most states are much more restrictive than Hawaii on personal injury lawsuits.)

Civil defense emergencies like our lava flow are similar to category 2: Officials have 1) a strong duty to warn the public of danger and 2) some duty to keep people from entering the zone. (Considerable debate ensues about the latter).

In the Guatemala volcano today--more than 60 dead--one report (not the one below), asserts that officials delayed 4 hours in warning the public. In Hawaii that probably could be a lawsuit....

Trigger warning: the opening photo is a bit of a shocker.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/04/americas/...index.html

ETA: Add word "legally" to before "prey on or scam the taxpaying public or businesses."

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Ringsven said "no swimming" signs were posted at the pools Monday morning because of the "above-average" stream level caused by several days of rain at higher elevations. The signs were still posted when rangers left for the day and the Kipahulu Visitor Center closed at 5 p.m.
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/articl...ln01a.html

$2M in Seven Sacred Pools Settlement
https://www.croninfried.com/In-The-News/...ment.shtml

There's another case that I believe happened in Kihei or Wailea at a County park, and the County was held responsible - - because the plaintiff claimed the sign wasn't big enough.

I have a friend on the mainland who's an attorney. I remember talking to him about the absurdity of the not-big-enough-sign case. He said, a good attorney can sue you for anything - - and win.

I alternate between thinking of the planet as home — dear and familiar stone hearth and garden — and as a hard land of exile in which we are all sojourners. Today I favor the latter view. The word “sojourner”... invokes a nomadic people’s sense of vagrancy, a praying people’s knowledge of estrangement, a thinking people’s intuition of sharp loss: “For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.” - Annie Dillard

[MarkD]

You're making the case that personal injury lawyers are worse than I think they are. I'm not inclined to disagree....

the second link....ah, our friends at Cronin, Fried, Sekiya, Kekina & Fairbanks

Never wonder how this law firm can afford so many TV ads.....see them every night.

[bystander]

Off topic but did you see the ad where the lawyer says that if you get hit by a car in crosswalk, sue the city and not the driver for not having the crosswalk brightly marked? That made me laugh. The city has more money.

[Midnight Rambler]

Note that the Seven Sacred Pools case was in a stream, not the ocean. There is a state law giving qualified immunity for personal injury lawsuits in the ocean barring active negligence. There was an attempt to pass a similar law for land-based claims, which had nearly unanimous support but was killed by Rep. Sylvia Luke (with the help of now-disgraced and always-crooked Speaker Joe Souki), who coincidentally is a member of the trial lawyers' association, the only group to oppose it.

[Kapoho Joe]

Don't lock up or fine these miscreants - put them to work helping people evacuate. Or make them wash dishes at the Hub.