HICC Mayoral Forum on Hilo Landfill
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HICC Mayoral Forum on Hilo Landfill
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08-15-2008, 04:08 PM
quote: Hilo has how much rain fall? It takes lots of heat just to dry green waste to the point it is burnable. No, we simply do not need any kind of 'black box' technology for our wasteful problem. Common sense resourcefulness -- reduce, re-use, recycle. It works. James Weatherford, Ph.D. 15-1888 Hialoa Hawaiian Paradise Park
08-16-2008, 01:17 PM
quote: It's a sad fact but also true that some of the most difficult problems our modern society faces are the result of misguided opinions and dogma of well-intentioned individuals, and this is no exception. You say we should rely on “common sense”. I say common sense for years was that the world is flat, we could turn rocks into Gold, the swaying trees made the wind blow, and that swallowing Tape Worms was a viable diet plan. Given the track record of “common sense” we finally invented what we call “The Scientific Method” so we could separate the wheat from the chaff in the area of how the physical world actually works. And, that Scientific Method has been remarkably accurate in providing a workable and reliable picture of our world. So, rather that implying sinister intent by calling things you don't like or don't understand “black box” solutions, maybe you should instead accept the science and “do the math”. OK, with that off my chest, off the top of my head 2 things occur to me regarding your claim that green waste is too wet to burn in Hilo. The first is that for about 100 years our economy in this rainy town was based on burning the green waste of sugarcane. In fact, for many years burning of that waste supplied all the energy required to process the sugarcane into sugar AND approximately 20% of the electrical energy consumed on this island. So, not only is your claim that it's too wet to burn green waste here theoretically wrong, we also have a long history of actually doing it. The second is the physics. Assuming green waste at 50% moisture, an ambient temperature of 80F, and standard atmospheric pressure, it would take (212-80+970)/2 or, 551 btu input to completely dry 1 lb of green waste, leaving ½ lb of plant fiber. Almost all species of plants contain slightly over 8,000 btu/lb bone dry so the original 1 lb of green waste contains about 4,000 btu, or slightly less than 8 times the heat required to supply enough energy to allow it to burn. 50% was easy so I used that number, feel free to pick one more to you liking. However, keep in mind that simply storing he stuff under cover for a few days while allowing the water to run off will allow vegetable soup to get to 50% moisture. Yes, as some argue that anthropogenic causes of global warming do not exist some will also argue that we should mulch green waste as opposed to burning it to displace hydrocarbon fuels because mulching is more "environmentally friendly". However, the science disagrees with both opinions. Man is a major contributor to global warming and burning renewable resources such as green waste in preference to hydrocarbons is tremendously better for our environment that mulching that same green waste. The only problem with burning green waste is it doesn't fit the dogma of some who believe they are environmentalists but have not done their homework. Don't take my word for it, read the literature, and do the math.
08-16-2008, 02:25 PM
quote: It can take longer than 3 to 5 years to get permits. The time it takes is directly proportional to the resistance put up by the pseudo-environmentalists. The basic permitting process, with no resistance by the fringe and an acceptable original plan, is less than 1 year. How do I know that? Been there, done that. As for the high market value of paper and plastics, pull 'em out and recycle them then. BTW, I know you're not math inclined so I'll walk you through it. A ton of dry paper contains about 8000 * 2000 btu, or about 16 million btu. A bbl of diesel contains a little over 8 million btu so in round numbers a ton of dry paper is worth about 2 bbls of diesel. A petroleum barrel is 42 gallons and let's peg diesel at $2/gallon, even though today in Hilo it's more than twice that. Anyway, $2/gal diesel means 2 bbls of diesel are worth 2*42*2, or about $168. So, in order for paper to be worth more recycled than as a replacement for what Helco burns in many of its plants, you'd have to get $168/ton for it. I can't seem to get current data on the recycled paper market but my guess it is considerably less than $200/ton for the type of paper you would recover from the landfill stream. But, if you assume $200/ton that leaves $32/ton for processing and shipping. If you pay someone $10/hr including fringe benefits, something I don't think is possible, he would have to recover 2.5 tons of paper every day he works and swim with it on his back to the West Coast in order for you to break even. Putting it all together, I would say there isn't a chance of a snowball in hell that recycling landfill paper makes more sense economically than burning it.
08-16-2008, 04:17 PM
George,
First, permits. Specifically where and in what role have you 'been there, done that' as in permitting an MSW WTE? Specifically which (of the several necessary) permits? The County Department of Environmental Management information online will corroborate the 3 to 5 years -- actually, some estimates are for longer, I just didn't want to go there. Second, costs. Go ask the people who are doing it: the Pahio family at Business Services Hawaii and the good people at Atlas Recycling. James Weatherford, Ph.D. 15-1888 Hialoa Hawaiian Paradise Park
08-17-2008, 05:50 AM
quote: You may not have noticed but I'm also posting on punaweb regarding Billy Kenoi. Because of that I'm very reluctant to answer your question regarding "been there done that" lest I inadvertently identify myself and get my tires slashed, or worse. However, in regard to "what permits", the main permits required, and those that typically take the longest, are Covered Source (air), and NPDES (water). As for others, much depends on the physical location, zoning, and to some degree plant design specifics. For instance a Shore Line Management Permit may be required if you're within 500 ft. of the shoreline. As for the time required, I agree it usually takes 3 or more years. What you apparently missed is that the reason it usually takes so long is because people such as yourself almost always oppose this type of project and try to drag out the process as long as possible in the hope they can eventually stop it. On the other hand, with no opposition and good consultants the process can be remarkably speedy. As for calling Atlas or some other recycler about the economics, you're confusing apples and oranges. To get it straight you might want to ask them not just about the economics of recycling paper but also about the economics of physically extracting paper from the material going into landfill. In other words, it's one thing to handle clean pre-sorted or easily sorted paper that's brought to you in bags and a completely different thing to rummage through the landfill waste stream for paper suitable for recycling. The 2 major reasons for this are: #1 is after the paper is mixed with the garbage much of it is crap not suitable for recycling. #2 is recovering it from the landfill stream is labor intensive. Lastly, instead of trying to engage me in a battle over minutia I feel everyone would be better served if you spoke to the facts of the subject, leaving out sinister phrases such as "black box technology" obviously designed to instill suspicion and instead focus on the science, including realistic atmospheric chemistry.
08-17-2008, 07:08 AM
"..get my tires slashed, or worse..."
You feel seriously threatened by this little dust up, call me, 24/7, 982-5549, and I'll come sit on your car with the necessary security hardware apparatus. "what permits" What about a building permit? FAA? Department of Health, solid waste branch? This is personal and not really civil. "people such as yourself" Will not have further discussion with uncivil fakes. James Weatherford, Ph.D. 15-1888 Hialoa Hawaiian Paradise Park
08-17-2008, 11:23 AM
You -> What about a building permit?
FAA? Department of Health, solid waste branch? Me -> As I said, I didn't list all the permits required, just those that are traditionally time consuming (and I confess those that popped into my mind). If you want exact requirements, my standard consulting fee is $450/hr. On the other hand, I should have mentioned Solid Waste because it's important. As for the other "permits" you mention: FAA Part 77 regulates structure height in proximity to an airport or other facility where the FAA has jurisdiction. Assuming the facility you're constructing is outside the jurisdictional area as described in FAA Part 77, the FAA doesn't care other than a general requirement for anti-collision lighting under the right conditions. Regardless, in no case does the FAA issue a "permit". They issue a finding that the structure is or is not a hazard to aviation. Building permits and meeting zoning requirements are universally required so they don't seem significant to this discussion. As an aside, in the context of this discussion a building permit would be more significant to those trying to obstruct construction than to the people trying to get the facility built. You -> This is personal and not really civil. "people such as yourself" Me -> So, you wouldn't oppose construction of a WTE plant? Look, if you find the truth about your actions insulting I recommend you reconsider your actions instead of trying to insult someone who has spoken the obvious truth. You -> Will not have further discussion with uncivil fakes. Me -> Who I am has nothing to do with the atmospheric chemistry, the economics, or the environmental viability of your ideas, all of which you steadfastly refuse to address. By your statements it seems you demonstrate very nicely that your arguments are based on dogma rather than facts. If you find that observation insulting too, again I don't know how to apologize for the truth being true. BTW, as for the Billy "dust up", you don't get to decide what risks I'm willing to take. |
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