Roundabouts for traffic control at intersections

[Rob Tucker]

I also have heard, and believe it to be true, that the Federal Highway Administration will pay 100% of roundabout construction costs.

As I recall from the State STIP budget the DOT is spending $2.2 Million to install a signal at S. Kulani on Hwy. 11. Seems astounding to me.

If just the signals cost around $2 million each then the $60 million for Hwy. 130 won't last long.

If it's true that the Feds would pay 100% of roundabouts the perhaps that would free up cash for other improvements like PMAR.

Hwy. 130 and PMAR are related. If the first phase of PMAR (Hilo to HPP) was constructed then pressure on Hwy. 130 would be greatly reduced.

[DanielP]

PMAR would be a top priority IMO.

Dan

[AlohaSteven]

For the record in this thread specifically on roundabouts in Puna-

[quote from Kapohocat in Speed Traps on 130 thread] "What about we try one roundabout"

This is a good suggestion, imho.

In Alaska the road professionals recommended roundabouts to resolve some worsening traffic problems at trouble spots and met with huge resistance to the idea. I was among those who did not favor having roundabouts, mainly because I worried about how they would serve when roads tend to be icy (which is several months every year). One was put in and the number of accidents went way down even as flow improved and speeded up. Now there are several, including a double-roundabout (two roundabouts linked with each other on either side of an overpass). While it is the exact opposite of what I expected, they do work well --based on actual results-- and I am now glad the roundabouts are here even though I initially opposed them.

Also, the comment by rbakker about how "Some countries jazz up roundabouts by putting all sorts of interesting things in the middle (eg works of art, I saw an enormous book somewhere) which then become reference points for giving directions" is absolutely true -and quite pleasantly so.

It is hilarious how the statues quickly become landmarks known by a local nickname -such as a Soviet-style youth monument with a very upright and determined-looking lad and lass striding boldly forward into the future becoming "Hänsel und Gretel" or a massive bronze monument to the petroleum industry with a muscle-bound male heroically holding a dish of leaping flames above his head being called "Pizza Man."

If roundabouts with monumental art are installed all over Puna then I can just hear driving instructions being given ten years from now: "From Pahoa go to Surfer Boy, then to the Hippopotamus and from there about a mile before you reach Oceanic Flt 815 look for the party happening in the yard of a green house on the left." Local color and flavor, indeed.



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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

Pres. John Adams, Scholar and Statesman


"There's a scientific reason to be concerned and there's a scientific reason to push for action. But there's no scientific reason to despair."

NASA climate analyst Gavin Schmidt

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[james weatherford]

... would you believe it?
A sketch by an accomplished local artist already exists for a carved-from-albizia figure --- BIG --- face toward each direction... the interior of the circle landscaped with e-z care natives like Ilima.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[Bob Orts]

Brought this over.

quote:

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Originally posted by james weatherford

Yes, roundabout really is only a tool -- only one traffic control tool among others.
The problem is, it is a very effective one that our County Dept of Public Works and the State Dept of Transportation have refused to even consider for most projects -- that is, roundabouts never even come into the decision making process. The basic question is never asked, on installation and/or alteration to an intersection. These agencies have not simply passively neglected this tool, they have explicitly refused to ask this simple question, "Will a roundabout work best?" -- this is what needs changing, the policy of evaluating the potential for using this proven and effective tool.

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The break gave me a chance to do some more research. This time I went looking for why roundabouts are dismissed without review. Here’s what my traffic engineer and a roadway civil engineer I know basically said.

/1/ Roundabouts are often not considered simply because the people responsible haven’t a clue. They are outside their comfort zone and most likely have no practical knowledge so they don’t even look at them.

/2/ Roundabout require much more preplanning studies versus a normal intersection. Most municipalities lack the ability to do these so even if they like the idea, they need funding to hire firms that specialize in roundabouts to conduct a proper review.

/3/ They both said that it’s false that roundabouts use less land. Roundabouts are land intense traffic control devices. The CE did a quick drawing showing a 2 lane road intersecting another 2 lane road. If it must handle A’s and B’s, the standard intersection will be at the minimum about 700 square feet. A roundabout for the same traffic spec is about 5,800 square feet. According to them, most people get away with the numbers by reclassifying the center circle not as part of the road system, but as a park or something else. That enables the planners to hide the intensity of the roundabout.

/4/ Roundabouts requires a look into the future. You have to plan the design around what will occur down the road. They said if that’s not done, you end up with roundabouts that fail and have to have controls just like an intersection. When a roundabout fails, it presents a worst traffic situation than a standard intersection, so realistic planning is key. Likewise, a properly planed roundabout would initially look too big for the need.

/5 / Politics. Yes politics play a big role because if the government doesn’t own the land needed for the roundabout, eminent domain may be the solution. And, ever since Kelo, no politician wants to put their fingerprints on it.

So they basically said, if they are not ready to look at them, they are not ready. Pushing it often times end up hurting because the planners will grab the next project, even if a roundabout was never realistic, and go through the steps just for the consultants to say it’s not feasible. That gives them the ability to look at you and say, “I told you so! Look at all the money you caused us to waste”, and roundabouts could be dead for a lot longer.

[james weatherford]

Thanks for that Bob.
Yes, as with any new idea, those entrenched in a comfort zone may sometimes try to spite the messenger.
That is negligence and the public need not tolerate it -- in the words of a person who has 'taken the King's gold' a large part of my career. I take public service seriously and know lots of other public employees who also do.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[Guest]

I'm gonna be bluntly honest about things right now...

But I'm just so very curious as to why the state has formed a new advisory panel and didn't listen to past ones.

Is the state going to do the same with the current one.... NOT if I can help it. [!]

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Glob