Emergency Ingress/Egress between Hilo and Puna

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by Laughing_girl

Does the COH have an easement?

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From what I have found, it's a combination of everything, some still under dispute. But, since this is not a new item of discussion, wouldn't one think that if the "Road" and its use was factually established in favor of it being a open road that it would have been made public? I mean Shipman made a public claim that portions of the "Road" is private and they had the legal right to do things they have done with the road and nobody has proven that false. I mean, how many groups (land use, environmental, Hawaii rights, public access, conservation, etc) have been dealing with such a simple issue for so long, yet Shipman's boulders and restrictions remain. What does that say?

[Wao nahele kane]

Bob,
I'm not intending to be a pain here, just want to clear this up and this will probably help resolve what your thinking and move you forward.
Download the following plat map with a right mouse click and select "Save Target As", then open the the map after it has down loaded and zoom in on the right upper corner inset and note that the lines of the road are the boundary lines on each individual parcel shown that contacts it. This is not one huge parcel, it is many differing parcels that the Shipman's purchased over several years and not a one are part of the road as the road is a county owned beach road and is not owned or consumed by any single surrounding parcel.
http://www.co.hawaii.hi.us/maps/tmk/1/1-6/h16001.tif
If you are still having troubles understanding the survey maps meanings, you'll have to talk to some-one down at the planning department or building department. I can't make this anymore clear on-line but I can assure you there is no "easment" involved in this matter, the county is the legal owner of the roads entirety from begining to end and through all subdivisions and large parcel regions.

Bob the road is pretty much a through way everywhere with the exception of non-use between HBS and HPP and then the final region of blockage is through the Shipman's land who have over only time finally pushed everyone away and caused everyone to belive it's their land when in-fact it is not.



E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Rob Tucker]

A lot of what is being discussed here harkens back a couple years to a barely resolved "roads in limbo" situation. For a long, long time there were (and still are) roads whose exact ownership and responsibilities of maintenance were anything but clear. Into that vacuum steps an unknown number of landowners and interested parties. Those with physical control of the roads do nothing. Those with competing claims lack the resources to challenge. Stalemates.

Do not assume that it as easy as looking at notations on a map to discern the facts.

So a few short years back the State of Hawaii delivered responsibility and unclear title to over 800 miles of "roads in limbo" to the CoH.

Do not assume that that was or is the end of the issue.

I myself live on one of these "roads in limbo". It was not part of the handover from the State to the County. We who live here are told it is a private road and we must maintain it ourselves. We also also told we cannot control access and it must be open to the public. The road has a TMK number but no listing of ownership of the TMK. The TMk is on a map but not in the tax records. There are water and power easements on my road but no record of who granted the easement to whom. I have spent fifteen years trying to understand this one little road without conclusion. And I live on it.

Welcome to Hawaii.

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Tucker

Do not assume that it as easy as looking at notations on a map to discern the facts.

So a few short years back the State of Hawaii delivered responsibility and unclear title to over 800 miles of "roads in limbo" to the CoH.

Do not assume that that was or is the end of the issue.

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Yeah, from what I got back, it appears it's a whole bunch of stuff intermingled that created a big problem. I'll paraphrase what DOT said.

1. Jurisdiction: The Roads In Limbo issue was resolved by an act of the legislature that turned over all the state roads in question to the county. Jurisdiction is in the hands of the county. That resolved the jurisdictional issue.

2. Maintenance: Hawaii County countered that the state turned over substandard and decaying roads to the county but provided no funding. This is being resolved thorough negotiation with the state.

3. Ownership: Still a big question. Over time the state acquired these roads but not all can follow a paper trail for legitimacy. As ownership is resolved, legal ownership to the county is being worked out with property owners. Others are just right of ways over private property. In some places, there’s no proof the government ever acquired the legal rights. But the biggest obstacle is when these roads deviated from what they thought and may be partially on private property and the private property owner may actually be on government land. This is where the road meanders from its original course to that straddling or crossing private property. The burden is on the government to prove they have the legal ownership when the property owners can show deeds or such that they own the property.

4. Use of Road. It was made clear that just because the county may have rights or ownership to a road, it does not mean the road is open for public use. The county can close roads for safety or engineering reasons. People should not mistake the word "Road" as meaning it's for public vehicle use.

Number 4 is the one that appears to create more problem than all the rest. As you mention, part of the Roads in Limbo was "paper roads". These roads appear on maps as roads, are labeled as roads, show as references on TMK maps, but do not exist. Some are close to people’s private driveways and because no physical roads exist, people mistake these private roads as public roads and react without thinking. Another issue is when these roads show on maps but the measurements do not match. You have a 1000’ foot piece of surveyed land on two parcels. One is legally 400 feet, the other legally 600 feet, but there’s supposed to be a 10-foot wide road also in that 1000’. So where does that road fit in the picture?

One big mess!

[JWFITZ]

This situation is hardly limited to Hawaii. Roads across the nation are under "anti-territorial" pissing matches as they're huge cost liabilities, and no one wants them. Miles of rotten neglected pavement are being torn out and graveled. I would have never believed we'd see an end to the relentless spread of asphalt but at the moment we are. Truly a interesting moment in history.